25 replies to this topic

[Sri]

Hi Everyone

 

Turning to this forum for help because the vets are not so far able to figure this one out.  Two weeks ago after bouts of diarrhea that had been off an on for several weeks, I was horrified to see purple tarry bloody goo coming out of Sita's behind.  

 

Of course I rushed her to the vet.  They x-rayed her belly for obstructions, and tested her blood and stool.  No parasites, worms, or abnormalities were detected.  $800 and an overnight later (thank goodness for pet insurance!!!) they sent her home with antibiotics and instructions to feed her plain chicken and white rice until her stool became normal again, diagnosing her with gastroenteritis...a general term for inflamed bowels that has many different causes.  Basically they didn't know why it was happening.  Everything stabilized , I started reintroducing the "Call of the Wild" kibble I use, after a couple of days and I thought she was better.  Here we are two weeks later, and she once again started appearing woozy yesterday, stopped eating, and today more horrible purple goo coming from her backside.  

 

I feel scared that they don't know why this is happening.  I'm thinking I might need to change her diet completely?  Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated.  One friend recommended a raw diet...She has not ever eaten any raw meat I've tried to give her, doesn't seem to find it appetizing...

[LakeGirl]

Did you possibly get a bag of contaminated food? This IS a scary situation. I would ask the vet about a place to get the food analyzed. Maybe also at some point a second opinion/exam from a veterinary gastro or kidney specialist. Woozy makes me think toxins affecting the liver or kidneys, or perhaps it's the blood loss. You would think anemia would have shown up on the blood tests. Just a lot of guessing. Keep us posted please!

Edited by LakeGirl, 01 February 2017 - 01:03 PM.

[LakeGirl]

I'm not a professional, but do like researching. I couldn't find "Call of the Wild" dog food anywhere on line, only "Taste of the Wild" and "Wild Calling." There was one supplement called "Call of the Wild." There is an alternative M.D. online, Dr. Mercola, and he partners with an alternative vet., Dr. Becker. I couldn't come up with a url or paste the article here, but Dr. Becker wrote an article on pet foods that are adding prebiotics and probiotics to their formulations, and that often these are not tolerated well and result in gastroenteritis. All of the above named products ingredient labels include probiotics. Hopefully it can be something as simple as a problem with food. The balance of gut flora is highly important for any creature. Upset the balance, and you end up with leaky gut and a whole domino cascade of illness. Check your ingredient list and ask your vet what they think. Check out www.healthypets.mercola.com. The title of the article is "Even the Most Careful Pet Parents Can Easily Make This Trendy Mistake"

Edited by LakeGirl, 01 February 2017 - 07:32 PM.

[NorCal]

thinking of you and your pup....

[Sri]

Thank you so much.  I'm a little embarassed that I was not more accurate when I stated what I was feeding her:  Taste of the Wild is it, and she has tolerated and even thrived on it in the past.  I love the idea of getting this batch tested; I'm pretty sure that both incidents have occured within the time frame of using this one large bag.  I will keep you all posted

[KittynDoc]

Oh my!! I am so sorry to hear of this happening to your Sita!! My thoughts are with you...I agree, it seems to point to the food! I sincerely hope you get to the bottom of this soon. 

There is a holistic vet who is a homeopath, and her name is Madeline Innocent. I signed up for emails to get information etc., and I actually had a question which I sent off, never expecting her to answer...and she did!! I don't have the link right now, but if I find it, I will post it. 

 

In both man and beast, digestion is the crux; it is what either keeps us healthy or sick...I am of the school of though that the simpler the better. I am leaning towards going almost all raw with Wyot. I look for kibble that is made in the USA, and a very small, family owned company, that has only one or two plants of production. Not easy, but I'm still hunting for this, and in the meantime, giving him scraps from our food (we eat organic), shredded raw cheese, veggies, and sometimes, even fruit as a snack. His stool is less, and firm, and he seems to thrive. So far, the more protein in the kibble, the better (Orijen is one I am trying at the moment, while I keep researching). He also absolutely goes wild for what seems to be the better food (there are some "raw" kibble on the market.).

 

I would go with homeopathy to heal Sita....it really works wonders for both people and animals! (I've been using it for over 25 years, and that was my first go to for my kids when they were sick).

 

If I find out any more information, I will post....it is still early morning here in NY...

Sending healing energy to both of you!!! 

[KittynDoc]

Ginger helps calm and heals the gut, helps nausea, and if you give it in the dog's water as a tea, would help to rehydrate. Coconut water is a great help to rehydrate as well. I naturally put dried ginger in Wyot's food, along with powdered garlic. Here is an article that actually tells you how much ginger (and what kind- tea, dried, fresh) to use depending on the size of the dog. Scroll down to almost the bottom and you will find it there. 

 

http://www.dogsnatur...our-dog-ginger/

 

My brain has started to work after coffee...

 

http://www.whole-dog...gs_21433-1.html  (this explains herbs and their effective uses for immune health, as well as acute help- chamomile is my favorite)

 

Chamomile tea is actually really good for dogs and their digestion, and not only digestion, but it helps keep worms at bay, naturally! I give Wyot chamomile a few times a week in his water, and he gulps it down gratefully. Dogs do gravitate naturally to what is good for them. Dry kibble, as a rule from what I have read, seen with my own dogs in the past, are too dry, and always should be served with water, and mixed, so that the water content (which is removed from food to make it dry) per say, is put back into food as it should be. If it isn't it taxes the digestive system....kefir, yogurt, goat's milk are all good additions to quality kibble. It gives extra protein, and easily digestible protein at that. As far as vegetables are concerned, giving them to dogs raw is best- BUT, you need to break it down (ie. use a blender to break down the cellulose, which makes it a bit like a pre digestive enzyme)...this way, the natural enzymes in veggies help the dog's gut to digest the food and utilize every part of its nutrition. Otherwise, it passes through the digestive system and comes out in the stool whole...meaning the body didn't digest and take any nutrients in. 

 

So sorry if I am going on and on, but this is my passion in life...helping others to bypass the mainstream way of thinking about the health of both people and animals, and get back to the absolute basics...most doctors, vets and other mainstream practitioners have been made to put fear in us if we don't use their "medicines"....most medicine, as far as I know, is poisonous, and don't treat the whole person or whole animal...we are not parts (you can't just treat the broken leg, let's say, because it is the whole body that helps the leg to heal, not just the leg all by itself! Hope I am making sense...)

 

Aplologies if I overwhelm. I just hope Sita comes out of this soon, and both you and she will rest easy. 

 

PS- Here a good link to a worthy wholistic dog magazine online to subscribe to...(this article is about gut health)

 

http://www.dogsnatur...-gut-dog/ line

Edited by KittynDoc, 02 February 2017 - 07:18 AM.

[Sherab]

Sri that does sound scary. I'd put her back on the chicken and rice and hold her there for a while. When humans get food allergies they are put on a very bland and simple diet and then one thing is introduced at a time slowly. Definitely talk to a specialist. I bet your area has some good ones. You can add things to the chicken and rice over time but I wouldn't whole sale switch her to a new kibble or raw diet right away. That can cause a major gut upset. I would do your research and decide what you do want to try for a long term diet and introduce that in small amounts and taper from the chicken and rice. A probiotic is a good idea but take care with that too. You may want to get some pearls and give it to her like a pill or use a very small amount (like 1 tea spoon) of goat kefir or yogurt. I've read that Kim gives the pups goat milk so probably that is ok and probably easier for them than cow.

Let her heal and build her strength back up and consider talking to Kim about it. Perhaps he has experience with the topic and can recommend some things. When I first got on the Forum 6? years ago the only thing I saw health wise that popped up a lot had to do with food and food allergies. These days a lot of dogs of all breeds have issues or maybe better stated a lot of food has issues.

Take it slow. We give our dogs bone broth but it's very rich and that can lead to loose stool for example. Also too much meat and not enough fiber can make the stools very hard and hard to pass. Avoid big changes, take it slow.

Finally a few other things to consider - has she been to the beach or some other location and sipped forbidden nectar? Ours had a little poop fest during the thaw when they sipped from forbidden puddles of slush. Or has she tasted the forbidden chocolate of any animal? I avoid certain trails during melts because I know there will be partially thawed poops that they will see and investigate before I know what's up. If you think that might be a factor try avoiding the old haunts for a while. Also treats need to be under suspicion. People everywhere like to thrust treats at dogs- at least around here. Just say no.

Has she been chewing on any plants inside or outside? Or do you visit with anyone that might have undogproofed rodent, ant or roach bait? Did the vet say if there is any sort of doggy virus going around? Both mine usually have rock solid guts but after a short stay at the kennel they both came down with a doggy bug that gave them nasty poop for a month.

Wishing you good poops in only the way dog owners understand and keep us posted.

Edited by Sherab, 02 February 2017 - 07:30 AM.

[Denise E.]

Sri,

 

I am so sorry to hear that Sita and you are going through this!

Glad the tests have come back clean yet it is very frustrating - if there is a wholistic vet in your area maybe you could go for a second opinion there.

 

The only article I can up with in an online search was this:  http://www.justanswe...-just-poop.html

It speaks about purple slime in dog's poop and a vet tells tests and what he would do.

 

Here is my thoughts - just thoughts - not medical advice:

 

I agree with the bland diet for a little while (5 -12 days? depending how fast she heals - give it at least a day or two after no more purple in poop).  If her poop isn't firm or it still may be good for her tummy & GI tract: maybe canned pumpkin (not pumpkin pie mix) with the chicken and rice and some goats milk or kefir maybe a little diluted with spring water?.

The article I linked spoke about adding fiber, pumpkin has fiber.

 

I feed Taste of the Wild, the High Prairie formula. (I've heard Orijen and Fromm are both really good foods too).

I don't add canned food but cook organic chickens in a crock pot and boil sweet potatoes (and drain the water), I add boil the organs and chop them up and add that broth plus the regular chicken broth (about 2 cups) to the deboned chicken & sweet potatoes and have over a months worth of nutritious moisture to add to the dry kibble.  I have been experimenting with adding chopped carrots last month and apples chunks (not the seeds) this time to the new batch made.  The apples were raw and I blanched the carrots so they would still have some crunch and be easier to digest.

 

I agree with Sherab's? statement, don't make switches too soon or too fast.  It upsets the apple cart and you don't want more of that.

 

Tayamni just went to the Vet for abdominal pain but no blood from stool.  She got stepped on at the dog park and it stressed her to the point of not eating.  After being listened to, poked, prodded and tested and negative for worms and Giardia, the Vet put her on Famotidine and bland diet for 5 days.  After one dose of Famotidine she is eating her mix I mentioned above and has had a lot of intestinal gurgles - her poop is firm so I think the gurlges are good in this case - since she had none before when she stopped eating, and that is not like her at all - the hoover vacuum.  Also, she would lay curled up and didn't want her tummy rubbed - which is her go to place for rubs.

 

Taste of the Wild is supposed to be made in the south-east USA.  I don't know if all the ingredients are sourced from USA or not.

This video just says "trusted Vendors"  https://www.youtube....h?v=A0iP8y0wnb0  but it is a nice video to let you know how the food is made.

 

Look up to see if there have been any recalls on the food you use, just to be safe.  I don't believe Taste of the Wild has recalls but their parent company Diamond has had a good amount in the past.

 

Hopefully you will be able to control this issue with food & supplements - and take a look at treats you give, too - or others give your dog.

Oh I did try to switch my AI Dogs over to the adult version of the High Prairie formula but it didn't have enough fiber and Tayamni seemed allergic to an ingredient in the adult formula (maybe that was another flavor with the garbanzo beans) there's so much to watch for ....

 

I used to feed Tayamni raw chicken once a week as a treat but it got to be a pain when Coffey was a puppy.  I know people that make human grade balanced cooked meals for their dogs.

I've heard that pureed Raw vegetables are great!!!!!!  Just know what is good for dogs and then what Sita tolerates!  Tayamni has sensitivities to certain herbs and vegetables.

 

BEST OF LUCK and HOPE YOU FIND OUT WHAT HEALS HER SOON!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KittynDoc]

Any updates? I am hoping Sita is healing, and am keeping you both in my thoughts...

[Allison]

I am thinking a sharp foreign object got in there, was passed, so it didn't show up on the scans.  However,  it left a deep injury.  When you started food after 3-5 days, maybe it was still healing, and then broke open again. That is not uncommon in humans.
 
Keep to a delicate diet; give her 5-6 full days to heal. Then start ruffage.  Slowly add her kibble into to the rice and whatever good mixture you were doing.  3 chunks, 6 chunks, 6 chunks, then 12 chunks.  Or 6 chunks for a few more days.  Don't rush it.  
 
You had a healthy dog; then blood in the stool; then recovery on a careful diet; but when you went back to the regular diet, blood again.  
I'm thinking injury, serious injury, like a piece of glass maybe.  A cut in the intestinal tract.
 
Just a thought.  Brainstorming, and trying to help.

[Sri]

Gosh Everyone.  I am deeply moved and grateful for all of the thoughtful, kind, wise responses here.  Me and Sita are feeling the love.

 

I apologize for not getting on sooner to update you...Between work, taking care of Sita, and house projects it's been a crazy busy time.  Shortly after I first wrote we ended up at the vet again.  They gave her subcutaneous fluids, a shot of some antibiotic, and recommended keeping her on chicken rice (as several here have suggested) and basically doing what you folks have been saying, but with much less detail...keeping her on a special diet, and it's probably the food I've been giving her.

 

Allison I do sometimes think that her weird belly started after I was letting her chew up bones about two months ago...she showed no interest in the raw beef bones I brought home, so I lightly baked them, mindful of everything I've heard about the dangers of cooked bones.  She tore into them with gusto once cooked, but would really eat and swallow them.  One day she puked up a bile colored pile of bone shards, and I feel like her diarrhea started around then, which evolved eventually into scary purple goo.  So the idea that she was perhaps wounded by those bones really comes forward when you offered that perspective.  

 

Thanks everyone.  I've kept her diet as pure white rice and chicken with some added probiotics.  I have some goat yogurt I'm going to start adding soon.  She LOVES the chicken rice, now my challenge is to know how much to feed her, she has always free fed with kibble but now I think she'd just keep eating if I keep putting it down in front of her.  Her energy has been decent; she does seem just slightly more subdued, i know she is still healing.  You've given me so much to work with here...

 

AI people are good people!

 

Again, sorry to take so long to respond...Mahalo, Sri

[Sherab]

Oh my that must have been scary. I'm glad it is working out now and that you probably have the root of it. If not the cooked bones than something she ate. Going with the idea that she's had a cut from the cooked bones, I'd treat it like her surgery. It's been a long time but I think it was a good 2 weeks before stitches out. I'd keep her at least 3 weeks on bland, soft food and not add in anything hard for a while and then only gradually.

Yogurt is soft, soup broth is soft, kibble & treats are lumpier. Definitely soak the kibble in goat milk or water when you get to that point, so it is not so hard. We've done rice and chicken before. Our bugs eat a cup in the morning and a cup in the evening. Try that. You can always give her a little more if she seems to be starving (up to 2 cups 2ice a day if she's active). Also if the chicken has no skin on it then she's not getting much fat. A tablespoon of plain whole milk yogurt or of crock pot bone broth can really help the dogs to feel full and stop acting like shop vacs. The broth will have a lot of fat so introduce it as a flavoring at first (like a half teaspoon and work up).

On the raw stuff - use it as a treat would be my suggestion. Maybe 1 chicken wing every other day for that movie star white teeth. Hold off on the drum sticks and introduce them after success with the softer chicken wings. I'd do that after you get her leveled out on her new long term diet.

If you seriously get into raw dog food you will want to purchase a meat grinder (we got ours used on eBay) and grind it up, bones, skin and all so it looks like hamburger. You can also add organs, like liver. Grinding it makes it easier to mix in with rice or oats or what ever you are using as a base (so they don't just pick out the meat and leave the base). Too much raw meat = constipation. When you get to the point of moving her onto kibble or raw, move her over slowly.

We feed a 1:1 ratio of ground chicken to Sojos' base https://www.sojos.co...al-dog-food-mix plus broth and yogurt. It's important to soak the oats first with water then mix in all the other stuff. If we are traveling Scott bakes it into a loaf so we can feed them on the road with something that's not too messy.

I think Kittydoc first mentioned throwing soup bones into a crock pot with some water, herbs, a pinch of sea salt and vegetables. It's a great way to get all sorts of good collegen and joint friendly goodies and vitamins into them and it's easy. Say you have chicken for dinner and you have bones with a little meat, cartilage and tendons left. Just throw that in a crock pot, cover with water and let cook for 8 -12 hours. Strain the broth, toss the bones, freeze some and all good.

Edited by Sherab, 08 February 2017 - 08:11 AM.

[KittynDoc]

So glad to hear you may have found the problem...but more importantly, that she is healing.   Great advice from Sherab! I may have to get a heavy duty meat grinder...I'm saving up for a dyhydrator for us as well..geez, I'll need a super large kitchen, lol!!!

Yes, bone broth is terriffic for both humans and pets...so healing to the gut for all of us as well. I cook them in a crock pot for 12-24 hours on low.. Gonna have me some for lunch!

 

I did not know that we could feed the pups chicken wings...good to know!

 

Keep on healing, both of you!

[Sri]

Hi All

 

Just wanted to update everyone as to what's going on with Sita...in a word, she is doing much better!

 

I kept her on chicken rice for a good month, but she was still having bouts of diarrhea, luckily with no blood but she would still often be woozy, desperate to eat grass and seeming very nauseous.  Also, farting so much and with such a bad smell, which had never been the case before.

 

Then it hit my intuition strong one day a couple of weeks ago:  stop giving her probiotics!  I had been dilligently following the vets advice and giving her a packet of Fortiflora each day in her food, but I think a little bell went off, one of you had suggested that all of these dried foods that had probiotics added (which, it turns out, is a lot of them now that I'm paying attention!) may be upsetting the delicate balance of our sensitive furry friend's bellies...Also, two times that she definitely had blood in her stool and once in her vomit were times I gave her some very expensive and wonderful goat yogurt.  Not enough to prove, but enough to make me suspect that she didn't need me adding bacteria so concentratedly to her gut...

 

So, she finally appears to be stabilizing, thank goodness!  Also I have been adding raw hamburger and a spoonful of coconut oil to her chicken rice...no upset tummy, and nice solid stools now for several weeks.  I'm trying to work up the courage to give her a chicken wing because her teeth are definitely needing the scrub...

 

Thank you all for your care and sleuthing with me, it really helped!  I'm beyond grateful that my little girl is pulling out of that spiral...

[Sherab]

I'm glad you are finding a good path based on Sita's output data. I do think that there is no "one size fits all" advice for these little guys. So much of what we have to do is take in a lot of different view points and sort our path.

[Denise E.]

Hi Sri,

 

Glad you are finding a balance for her!

 

I only supplement Fortiflora (1/2 dose instead of full) when Tayamni's intestines start going "off".

Like this weekend we went sheep herding and she ate some poop - which is hard for her to digest.

I actually cooked oatmeal and added half a banana and gave her about two tablespoons in with her food for 4 days then just also did a half pack of fortiflora twice but with a day in between.

I will stop the fortiflora now as there is no rumbling and stools look good!

 

It is really nerve racking when your pup has gastro issues!!!!!  I feel for you.  We have never had blood in stool so I can't imagine how stressful that was!  Glad it's getting better! 

 

I feed Taste of the Wild - still the "puppy" formula of the High Prairie food.  Tried the "adult version but it didn't set well with her or the venison and garbonzo beans ...  so I just went back to the "puppy" version with the small kibble because it has the right balance for her  (more fiber) then adding the cooked chicken and sweet potatoes we make instead of canned food and both AI Dogs do very well on it.  So I don't need the higher protein that is in the adult formula (odd that the adult formula has more protein % than puppy formula) because the organic cooked shredded chicken and bone broth adds protein as well as a bit more fiber with the sweet potatoes ....  It really works for them.

 

I found when Tayamni was a puppy and needed extra probiotics (when on antibiotics, etc) that she tolerates Proflora much better, and now when I use the fortiflora I use half a package once a day or every other day and very limited.  Yes, Taste of the Wild, like many other dry dog foods, has probiotics in it already.

 

Raw meat is good.  I used to do that as a treat but as what I am doing now is working well so if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I'm sure Tayamni really misses chowing down on raw chicken parts though.  Every once in a while  ..... 

 

Kefir and goat milk are too much for Tayamni when gastro issues come up but it still works for Coffey.  Tayamni can have a little regular organic yogurt (not greek yogurt though) as a treat from time to time.

The coconut oil works great!  Glad it is helping Sita Flower!

 

This is such GOOD NEWS to hear!!!!!  Yes we need doctors to rule out serious medical issues and provide information for us to take in.

I am so glad you trusted your "gut" and instincts!!!!!!!!!     We live with our dogs every day so we can be aware of what is working and what is not.  Great observations by you!

 

Thanks for the update!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LakeGirl]

YAY!!! Thanks for the update! Good news!

[KittynDoc]

SO glad to hear she is healing!!!! What a journey.., and through your love and care, I know she will recover soon.  Our intuition as parents (whether humans or pets, or both) is so very important! Just like people, there is no one right way to feed or eat for everyone. It is not a one size fits all, as Sherab has so wisely said.

 

I personally switched to Orijen Puppy formula for Wyot, and I just use it as a supplementary food, or for when we travel. I've been feeding him completely raw food, and it is more affordable than the kibble! I find ground beef (grass fed and/or organic when I can) on sale, I know a butcher that saves the pieces from chickens, turkeys and packages them for sale, and I get three servings for less than a dollar!!!! He has eaten chicken legs, turkey wings and chicken thighs, all bone in. I cut the chicken pieces smaller making them bit size, mix food grade DE  (in the morning only), seasonal herbs (dandelion, nettle, mugwort),  a sprinkle of garlic, and a teaspoon of chopped onion (not always), and mix this with chopped lelttuces of all sorts, and sometimes parsley or cilantro. AMAZING how glossy his coat has become, how soft his fur is, clear eyes and strong, really white teeth (the bones sound like potato chips when he eats, lol!), not to mention his stools are less and just the right firmness. I'll be looking to get some liver, necks, etc. to mix in the food. Have to talk to the butcher, and he will custom make these...if you talk to your local butcher, they discard this usually, so you can ask them to make a  mix for you from these.

[Sri]

Thanks all for the support and continued great ideas!  Sounds like many of you have taken doggy care to a higher level...I'm finding that it is very satisfying to put effort into feeding my beloved fur baby more delicious, nutritious food...she used to just sort of poke at her bowl of dry kibble (understandably!).  Now she eats with gusto and is getting healthy again!

 

KittyNDoc, what did you mean by food grade DE?