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#1 KittynDoc

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 03:05 AM

Hello, all. Spring has finally sprung, late, as summer is coming real soon, but the dogs and I are loving it!! We are out as often as we can be, and Kitchee is doing something Wyot never did- playing frisbee, and dropping it when I say drop it. It didn't matter how much I tried, Wyot didn't get it, nor does he play stick- he likes tug of war, and if I throw anything, he keeps it and wants me to forcibly take it out of his mouth, and then throw it again....

I am trying to understand some things Wyot is now doing, and instinct says he is trying to keep his home turf HIS, and is trying to show it, but out of the two things he is doing, unless I am watching, he will ruin household furniture and items and outside on the deck unless I say NO and catch him. He marks his territory outside everywhere he goes now, and when we go out in our field, where we run around and play, he just stands there, and doesn't engage in any play at all (we do take him out individually so he gets the attention he needs), just finds mounds of grass, and marks...and then he starts kicking and shuffling the ground, throwing up some dirt behind him (it is not digging a hole- he stands and shuffles, letting dirt fly). I play frisbee with Kitchee, and encourage Wyot to join, but he very rarely goes for it. If give him a toy, and start playing, he starts, but then just lets the younger one take the toy without any kind of resistance, and then hangs his head, even though I tell him to get it, and I gently keep Kitchee from taking it....Kitchee is a little hoover/piglet, and attention hog, pushing Wyot away when I give him affection- but I tell him no, and keep petting Wyot, until Kitchee submits and lays close by, looking up at me with the saddest eyes, lol! I feed both of them by putting half of their food into a Kong, which keeps them at their own food bowls- otherwise, Kitchee would finish his food in record time and just go for Wyot's. Not so anymore due to my idea.

Now, Wyot has started to look at things like shelving, or the vacuum cleaner sitting there, and starts to raise his leg to mark- I keep either gently just pushing away, or a loud NO if I am not close enough. I thought this behavior lessened after a certain age and once they were neutered ....the only thing I can imagine is he is protecting his environment from the little one. I can't be in the room all the time to monitor what he/they are doing. Any suggestions would be helpful!

#2 miz molly

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 11:10 AM

My humble observations:

Tolinka is the real ball enthusiast. He has a very strong hunt instinct. He loves to hunt and chase, but has a hard time giving up the prizel. I believe that I most likely "took" the ball away from him many, many times when he was a pup verses letting him "give" it back to me. There's that hunt instinct again...giving up the prey is hard as the survival instinct kicks in. I changed things up with Rain and Two Step. When I asked for something from them I made sure they were looking straight into my eyes before I asked. It worked like a charm. Tolinka still has a problem "looking straight into my eyes unless I'm feeding him dinner," Must be an alpha thing? So in my humble opinion.... it's all about the eye contact.

 

Marking......sorry, I never had the problem of marking inside the house. Out side is free game. I do know it's a means of communication between the dogs. Maybe when you see him marking inside the house (territorial?), immediately take them all outside. Let him know that inside the home and deck are YOUR domaine NOT his. Outside is free game. Sort of like house breaking a pup....just a thought. Another time where direct eye contact would most likely work well.

 

The frisbee..... Maybe, just maybe he would be interested in another type of interaction with you. Maybe he just doesn't like how the frisbee feels on contact with his mouth.  I'm sure you have tried the "chuck-it for long distance ball & hunt play? Great ball toy. As far as "standing in the field.....my bet is Wyot is studying the situation. They are so smart...could be, for him, it's about making sure all is well and safe in that big open space.....Instinct kicking in. Maybe that is the job he has chosen, and the reason the job is there hasn't shown itself to you yet.  I'd let that one go.  

 

Giving up the toy....

Tolinka gives up the toy easily to both Two Step and Rain...ALWAYS.  He likes to play tug of war, but as soon as either of the other pups come close, he gives it up to them.    Maybe it's just that he doesn't like playing with them in that manner.  I figure it's his choice, so I don't press it.

 

The interests and needs of my three are totally different from each other. They have each found their own jobs, and remain alpha within those jobs.  Each respects the other.  It was a fun journey figuring out the needs and interests of each one. AND just like raising children, as soon as you figure it out, things change.... Thats Life.... :D


When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world. ~John Muir

#3 TrueNorth

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 06:04 PM

Yikes.  Don't have that issue. 

Although I do have a houdini (got out of dog-walker's car through small open window / pushed open screen in living room / broke leather tether in dog walker's car trying to get loose / balances like a cat on the smallest of ledges / and can throw her head back and howl like well, a wolf from northern Quebec LOL. 

First time I heard that I thought it was the TV.  Nope.  Gasp.  Little Khya in full Halloween Howl Mode

Keep us posted



#4 KittynDoc

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 06:17 AM

Ah, our lives with these amazing dogs!!!!

I just have to be consistent, I think with Wyot, and looking this up, I need to put a water bowl, or some other personal thing of his by the places he tries to mark...thank goodness it isn't many, lol! His territory without Kitchee is the livingroom, so there is no behavior of trying to mark anything in there (thank goodness, I have beautiful rugs in there!!!)



I took the time to observe Wyot up in the field, and yes, I do believe miz Molly, that he is in "protect" mode...he is watchful of every direction, sniffing the air, walking over to each "side" so to speak, and making sure all is fine. He loves to come and get love, so I have come to tell him what a good boy he is, watching and looking out for us. His expression changes to the goofy, very open lovey dove look of happiness, with his tail wagging. Thank you for that opinion, Miz Molly, so I could look and quietly observe and see that indeed, this is what he is doing!



Kitchee is a bounce off the wall, bark at everything I WANT YOUR ATTENTION NOW, dog,LOL!!!! He certainly chilled out Wyot, which is what we wanted...I think he will settle down as he gets older, and we are training him to stop being an attention hog. It takes a few gentle pushes to get him off Wyot when we are petting him (morning ritual, lol), and usually, on the third one, he settles and sits at our feet, looking up longingly for "his" turn.

Wyot, true to word, is not the retrieval/ go get it kind of dog. He never was...we'd throw something, and he enjoys tug of war, and then the "prey shake"....he likes it when I pry the toy out of his mouth, eagerly awaiting the throw so we can do that all over again. Once a day, usually evening, is when the two dogs run around playing the catch me if you can game- where Kitchee figured out when Wyot runs, instead of running after him and trying to catch him, he runs the other way (smart dog, hahahaha!)...it is SO fun to watch them do that!



True North, I can just IMAGINE your Houdini- and as our two have the same parents, believe me when I say that Mr. Kitchee tries to open gates, and actually pries loose some of them as well! They are very very vocal! Kitchee wakes us up every morning at 5:30, with his high pitched barking, which reaches fever pitch if you don't get down when he deems you should! He pounces as soon as I open the gate, like a horse let out of the racing gate....Wyot is quiet, and he never woke us...he just hung out until we came downstairs on our own time. Obviously, when he was Kitchee's age, he still did a bit of complaining, but grew out of that. The only thing I need to keep consistent on is the whining incessantly in the car (yes, still), and trying to mark inside... I am thinking that when we move later this year (if all goes well), the territory will be new to both dogs, so that there will be none of the competition and they will be more settled (I could be wrong, but this is my instinct). Thanks for the insights..and support! I truly appreciate you all!

Edited by KittynDoc, 24 May 2018 - 06:20 AM.


#5 Nyk

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 04:16 PM

Hey, there I'm Nyk, a dog trainer with Kennelwood/Invisible fence Saint Louis.

 

I am assuming Kitchee is a newer member of the family and to the house. if that is true then Wyot's marking is just letting Kitchee know that he was here first. granted that marking in the house is not okay, marking is how dogs let each other know who is around. as for as the giving up of toys, Wyot is willingly giving them up to let Kitchee play, probably because he does not value toys as much as he values affection, personal space and play time with Kitchee. in a way, it's like Wyot's saying "you can play with my toys I don't mind, but remember I was here first and my space is my space." you're doing a great job at everything! the kong idea is great and you are doing awesome with dividing affection for your pups! Neither of them are resource guarding, so that is a great sign you are doing a wonderful job at making things feel "fair" to the dogs. 

 

if you do move both dogs may be more willing to share things like spots in the house. Both pups will at some point find a spot for themselves and that may bring some small competition, but nothing more than some passive behaviors. a good example is if Wyot finds a spot but Kitchee wants that spot. Kitchee may sit or lay on Wyot. If Wyot does not budge and Kitchee gets up then Wyot has won and Kitchee will find a new spot. Another example, and maybe more likely example, is Wyot finds a spot and Kitchee wines and barks at Wyot to say "hey I want that spot get up". Wyot will either ignore Kitchee(by not looking at him, turning his back, or pretending to sleep, basically saying I cant see you so don't have to deal with you) and win the spot or get up because the spot was not worth hearing his brother nag him. This is my best guess based on my experience with my clients, and their pets.  

 

Best of luck to you and I hope I was helpful!



#6 KittynDoc

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 04:57 AM

Hey, there I'm Nyk, a dog trainer with Kennelwood/Invisible fence Saint Louis.
 
I am assuming Kitchee is a newer member of the family and to the house. if that is true then Wyot's marking is just letting Kitchee know that he was here first. granted that marking in the house is not okay, marking is how dogs let each other know who is around. as for as the giving up of toys, Wyot is willingly giving them up to let Kitchee play, probably because he does not value toys as much as he values affection, personal space and play time with Kitchee. in a way, it's like Wyot's saying "you can play with my toys I don't mind, but remember I was here first and my space is my space." you're doing a great job at everything! the kong idea is great and you are doing awesome with dividing affection for your pups! Neither of them are resource guarding, so that is a great sign you are doing a wonderful job at making things feel "fair" to the dogs. 
 
if you do move both dogs may be more willing to share things like spots in the house. Both pups will at some point find a spot for themselves and that may bring some small competition, but nothing more than some passive behaviors. a good example is if Wyot finds a spot but Kitchee wants that spot. Kitchee may sit or lay on Wyot. If Wyot does not budge and Kitchee gets up then Wyot has won and Kitchee will find a new spot. Another example, and maybe more likely example, is Wyot finds a spot and Kitchee wines and barks at Wyot to say "hey I want that spot get up". Wyot will either ignore Kitchee(by not looking at him, turning his back, or pretending to sleep, basically saying I cant see you so don't have to deal with you) and win the spot or get up because the spot was not worth hearing his brother nag him. This is my best guess based on my experience with my clients, and their pets.  
 
Best of luck to you and I hope I was helpful!



Wow, I am SO grateful for your observations from what I've written, and it helps to know that I am doing the right thing...and yes, many times, Kitchee lays on top of Wyot, and Wyot does not seem to mind. Wyot LOVES attention, praise and love. He is not treat motivated, but Kitchee is, so I've figured that part out, lol! Now that I know all this, I slowly see Wyot responding really well. I praise him outside when I see he is protecting our territory. He stands and looks out, and makes sure nothing is coming to harm Kitchee and myself. I love it! It is amazing once you "get" how they sort things out. Now if I could figure out how to calm Wyot in the car, as he whines and whines as if it's his first ride (he started this behavior before Kitchee, chasing cars, and then getting over excited and his whine gets louder and crazier), and stop Kitchee from stealing things from the table or kitchen counters when my back is turned, that would be a miracle!

I did give Kitchee a time out in a small crate that barely gave room for him to do anything but lay there, in a room, for less than five minutes, and then ignoring him once I let him out, but half a day later, he was at it again...and he KNOWS it is not acceptable- Wyot hangs his head, almost human like, looking at me saying "I can't stop him"....amazing these dogs and how different they are!

Thanks again for your reinforcement and insight. This is such a great place to come and "talk" about our wonderful animals...

#7 Nyk

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 08:36 AM

Wow, I am SO grateful for your observations from what I've written, and it helps to know that I am doing the right thing...and yes, many times, Kitchee lays on top of Wyot, and Wyot does not seem to mind. Wyot LOVES attention, praise and love. He is not treat motivated, but Kitchee is, so I've figured that part out, lol! Now that I know all this, I slowly see Wyot responding really well. I praise him outside when I see he is protecting our territory. He stands and looks out, and makes sure nothing is coming to harm Kitchee and myself. I love it! It is amazing once you "get" how they sort things out. Now if I could figure out how to calm Wyot in the car, as he whines and whines as if it's his first ride (he started this behavior before Kitchee, chasing cars, and then getting over excited and his whine gets louder and crazier), and stop Kitchee from stealing things from the table or kitchen counters when my back is turned, that would be a miracle! I did give Kitchee a time out in a small crate that barely gave room for him to do anything but lay there, in a room, for less than five minutes, and then ignoring him once I let him out, but half a day later, he was at it again...and he KNOWS it is not acceptable- Wyot hangs his head, almost human like, looking at me saying "I can't stop him"....amazing these dogs and how different they are! Thanks again for your reinforcement and insight. This is such a great place to come and "talk" about our wonderful animals...

 

Actually, there are a few things you can do for both dogs! As far as Wyot goes you could simply crate him when you drive. my guess is he is overstimulated so wither crate or simply giving him something else to do while in the car may help!

 

Kitchee and his sneaky habits I would recommend a correction collar of some sort, given that you would be okay with that. Normally as long as you use a correction collar properly, you should have no issues. correction collars also come in a variety of types and materials. Based on the information about the AIDog breed, I would guess the breed is sensitive to corrections, and may only require a Martingale collar. martingale is the most "gentle" of correction collars aside from a remote collar (which can be adjusted to meet the levels required for a dog). no matter, if you do choose to try a correction collar do speak with a trainer in your area first. knowing how to use training equipment correctly is a huge part its success and how we can use negative reinforcement, without stressing our best friends. 

 

In the end how you go about stopping bad or unwanted behaviors is up to you. there are lots of ways to train a dog and each has their own ups and downs.



#8 KittynDoc

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 11:17 AM

 
Actually, there are a few things you can do for both dogs! As far as Wyot goes you could simply crate him when you drive. my guess is he is overstimulated so wither crate or simply giving him something else to do while in the car may help!
 
Kitchee and his sneaky habits I would recommend a correction collar of some sort, given that you would be okay with that. Normally as long as you use a correction collar properly, you should have no issues. correction collars also come in a variety of types and materials. Based on the information about the AIDog breed, I would guess the breed is sensitive to corrections, and may only require a Martingale collar. martingale is the most "gentle" of correction collars aside from a remote collar (which can be adjusted to meet the levels required for a dog). no matter, if you do choose to try a correction collar do speak with a trainer in your area first. knowing how to use training equipment correctly is a huge part its success and how we can use negative reinforcement, without stressing our best friends. 
 
In the end how you go about stopping bad or unwanted behaviors is up to you. there are lots of ways to train a dog and each has their own ups and downs.



Hmmm...crating was an option, which we have not tried yet. Just don't know how Kitchee would like seeing his brother in a crate- and putting them in separate crates would likely create chaos for them both. I do feel that Wyot perhaps feels he cannot "protect" us from the oncoming cars, and he doesn't get why he can't do his job..poor guy.

I do have an e-collar which I used to train Wyot to pay attention to me when off leash, in the woods hiking. I never used anything beyond vibrate or the number one number to bring his attention back. Now I barely need to use it- if I do, and I put it on, he is THE MOST obedient dog, and I don't even need to turn it on, lol!

Would I be able to use this collar on Kitchee? I also just wonder if I do use this collar, if Wyot would not like it, seeing as he knows it as his. Things to ponder...and these collars cost a pretty penny. We did think of using a scat mat, which we do have...it kept Wyot off the couch when we went to sleep or went out- we train our dogs to stay off furniture and beds. It worked wonders. Took a few weeks, but then he got it and we don't use it anymore. I'd probably put it up on the counter he jumps up on most (food prep area)...and see if that helps...he is incredibly smart and sensitive, this little 5 month old...he knows his cuteness is his safety, LOL!!!


#9 Nyk

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 01:16 PM

Hmmm...crating was an option, which we have not tried yet. Just don't know how Kitchee would like seeing his brother in a crate- and putting them in separate crates would likely create chaos for them both. I do feel that Wyot perhaps feels he cannot "protect" us from the oncoming cars, and he doesn't get why he can't do his job..poor guy. I do have an e-collar which I used to train Wyot to pay attention to me when off leash, in the woods hiking. I never used anything beyond vibrate or the number one number to bring his attention back. Now I barely need to use it- if I do, and I put it on, he is THE MOST obedient dog, and I don't even need to turn it on, lol! Would I be able to use this collar on Kitchee? I also just wonder if I do use this collar, if Wyot would not like it, seeing as he knows it as his. Things to ponder...and these collars cost a pretty penny. We did think of using a scat mat, which we do have...it kept Wyot off the couch when we went to sleep or went out- we train our dogs to stay off furniture and beds. It worked wonders. Took a few weeks, but then he got it and we don't use it anymore. I'd probably put it up on the counter he jumps up on most (food prep area)...and see if that helps...he is incredibly smart and sensitive, this little 5 month old...he knows his cuteness is his safety, LOL!!!

a scat mat is perfect if you don't want to use a collar! you have all the right tool and a great understanding of them! 

 

based on the comment about Wyot's behavior when the collar is on, its likely that Wyot won't mind and has a negative association with the collar. not that he is scared or traumatized but he does know that when that collar comes on, you mean business. 

 

those collars are not cheap, I'm fully aware, our obedience specialists use them often. what brand do you use? i know dogtra allows you to use two collars on a single remote. 



#10 KittynDoc

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 04:10 AM

My collar is by Sport Dog....I'll have to look and see if I can use two collars or not. I read that too. Thank you for reassuring me that I am doing the right thing!

#11 Sherab

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 03:28 PM

Agree with Mz Molly & NYK. For the marking inside the house, sounds like some mine! mine! mine! since he doesn't mark in the living room. Don't know if it will work but next time he marks, make a big deal of cleaning up and marking over his mark with your sent. Act offended at the scent (not Wyot). Wipe your feet too, the way he wipes them. Then go about the house and mark your territory randomly with scent and foot wiping. Try taking your shampoo or perfume or what ever is "your" scent and marking "everything" in the house, including each dog. Let him know that its your house inside and that you disapprove of his marking. You make the "marking" in the house. The dominant dog will pee on top of the pee of the lesser. Might work. Helped me with a trash can obsession. Good luck.

#12 KittynDoc

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 03:48 AM

Agree with Mz Molly & NYK.

For the marking inside the house, sounds like some mine! mine! mine! since he doesn't mark in the living room. Don't know if it will work but next time he marks, make a big deal of cleaning up and marking over his mark with your sent. Act offended at the scent (not Wyot). Wipe your feet too, the way he wipes them. Then go about the house and mark your territory randomly with scent and foot wiping. Try taking your shampoo or perfume or what ever is "your" scent and marking "everything" in the house, including each dog. Let him know that its your house inside and that you disapprove of his marking. You make the "marking" in the house. The dominant dog will pee on top of the pee of the lesser. Might work. Helped me with a trash can obsession. Good luck.


Thank you! Great idea...I will try that. I don't usually wear any perfume or scented body lotion, but I do clean a lot with a citrus cleaner that I use, so I must have that lingering on me, LOL!




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