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Suggestions For Sudden Overprotectiveness


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Didn't really know how to post a topic about this. Haven't posted in a while, because together with my business and doing events, making product, finally moving up to our property after living in a 30 foot trailer for ten months...and then moving into the house finally at the end of August, we have been BUSY to say the least, LOL! Both Wyot (who is now 3 yrs old) and Keechee (2 yrs old as of Dec 2nd- I think) have adapted SO well to living in our new home. While it is a small home, it is way bigger than the trailer. It took two days for them to realize what was now home, and not head to the door of the trailer (which still sits on our property). They have their own space at night, in the laundry/mud room, and just as in the trailer, they sleep perfectly through the night with no problem. We wake to them wrestling downstairs, and know it is around 6 am or 6:30, which is our usual wake up time.

 

One of the problems (or maybe it isn't a problem, I just don't recognize what it could mean) I have at the moment, is that Wyot has suddenly become possessive of me...and growls at Keechee. Not all the time, but certainly enough times. Outside, I let them run and play, but know that since Keechee came along, Wyot can't just play with a tossed stick, or a ball, or anything, because Keechee is a toy hog. I can give each of them a stick, but just like children, Keechee will run over and make sure Wyot doesn't have it, and takes it away, or chases him off of it, and Wyot lets him. From day one, Keechee always instigated the roughhousing play- he lovingly paws, cleans, or growls and covers Wyot's snout....but then outside, it gets downright aggressive (to me, anyway...I know dogs play like this), where Keechee, if not playing stick or frisbee with me, will constantly go after Wyot with jumping on him, biting his neck etc.. the way dogs roughhouse, but Wyot HATES it. I wait for him to tell Keechee off, but instead, he runs into me, sometimes hard into my legs...I have taken to always watch where they are, or I will end up injured. Any time this happens, he sticks by me, or goes under my legs if I'm just standing, I think to protect himself from the unwanted rough play. The last few days, every time we walk, if Keechee starts the attack, so to speak, he immediately sticks to my side like glue, literally! I will walk up the driveway, or in the woods, and he is stuck to my side, so Keechee can't get to him. I don't really know what to do with this.

 

I know that letting dogs figure out who is the alpha or head dog is usual, and humans should not intervene. But, this is getting a bit crazier, with me sitting down at the table to eat, or whatever, and Wyot comes over and puts his head on my lap, and then if Keechee comes over, he growls insanely at him, with teeth slightly bared. I do NOT intervene, for fear of getting bitten by accident. Keechee's ears go down, and he stares at Wyot, and looks up at me. I don't react and let them figure it out...usually, Keechee leaves and just lays by my feet, while Wyot stays right by my side.

 

Nothing has really changed at all, that I can think of. If anyone has any ideas or insights, I'd be grateful! Thanks in advance....

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This is a tricky situation, but I can very easily see how one could get here. Two of my dogs as puppies were relentless when there were other dogs and toys around - exactly as you describe; anytime an adult dog picked up a toy the young one would rush in and yank it out of their mouth and run off to hoard it. But it was obvious that it was never the toy that was important to the puppy, it was about making sure the big dog never got anything the puppy didn't also have. As you say, much like children. My personal opinion is that in order to maintain a structured environment for our packs to live harmoniously is that it IS beneficial to intervene. Just as a mother of a human child would not allow their child to run around grabbing every other child's toys, I stepped in and did not allow my puppies to grab toys out of the adults mouths'. If they tried to do so I corrected the behavior and gave the toy back to the adult dog. Some folks do prefer to let the dogs work it out among themselves, but from what I have seen is that it often creates the dynamic you are currently witnessing if one dog is significantly more passive. The pushier dog develops a habit of being pushy and starts taking it too far to almost an obsessive degree, and the more passive dog's defensive displays become more and more dramatic as they get pushed further and further to breaking point. It's not outside of the realm of possibility that breaking point may be an extremely dramatic and/or violent display of self defense that may or may not be effective at deterring Keechee's behavior in the future. Whether Keechee listens to Wyot's eventual breaking point display will depend on their personalities, but if Keechee is set enough in his mentality that he is the one to push Wyot around you may find that Keechee refuses to back down and you are left with an even stronger tension between the two.

 

My personal choice for creating my pack's 'vibe' is for all the dogs to learn to defer to me. They can monkey around with each other in play, but as long as they're living in my house, I call the shots as far as how much they can push each other's buttons. Puppies are taught that they cannot steal from and attempt to control their elders and encouraged to use proper communication skills with the adults (if I see a puppy sitting back and waiting their turn for a toy I will not intervene and the puppy is allowed to have that toy when the adult dog is done). If one of the adults corrects the puppy and the puppy tries to talk back about it, I step in and remind the puppy that that is NOT appropriate. If I'm playing with one of the adults, the puppy is not allowed to run in and intervene. They are taught to wait their turn in all aspects of life. This method tends to create dogs with the kinds of manners that most people like to see in an animal that shares a house with humans. Obviously wild canids do things a little bit differently and while these kinds of tensions do exist in the wild, it is always an option for the more passive canine to simply disperse and find a new territory (which does often happen). Given that our animals are required to share a house, I feel that maintaining harmony is part of my responsibility as an effective leader.

 

From your descriptions of their behaviors it sounds to me that Wyot is looking to you for assistance in this situation. It also sounds like Keechee is really 'ruling the roost' and has learned that he can get whatever he wants by acting out with controlling behaviors. I personally would not tolerate Keechee's behavior in my household and would be taking steps to remind him that his behavior is inappropriate and teaching him new behaviors to practice instead (sitting and waiting his turn to be pet, walking politely on leash until he can prove to you he can be off leash without harassing Wyot, etc). However, because Keechee is so used to doing these bratty behaviors, it's possible he will lash out at you or Wyot if you suddenly try to step in an intervene - so proceed with caution. If you do not feel confident that he will NOT do so or that you will be able to confidently manage his behavior to prevent him from ultimately getting his way if he tries, I would suggest seeking the help of a balanced trainer in your area to assist you.

 

Hope this helps, and would be interested in hearing others' takes on this as well. I personally have never dealt with behaviors this severe within my own pack, but my youngest has definitely needed some guidance to stop some resource guarding/control freak behaviors that have begun to appear. She is currently doing well but I could easily see her progressing down the same path as Keechee if left to her own devices.

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Great points to ponder! I must say, that Keechee has been a bit high strung as a puppy, and has definitely always been the instigator...having said this, though, I DO stop them when it gets too crazy in the house. Keechee is responsive, gratefully, but this new behavior started two weeks ago. I do always defer to giving the food bowl to Wyot first, then Keechee (both wait until I set their food bowl down)....if Wyot is peacefully laying down napping, and Keechee starts to nip at him, I do tell him to STOP....and he does, settling down. But he is at it 10 -15minutes later. I agree that he tries to rule the roost, and I have told Keechee to stop when Wyot comes to me peacefully with a "please help me" look. Otherwise the two of them really are quite good together. They play tug of war, and wrestle in the usual dog way...I will intervene more when they go outside , though I do encourage Wyot to "go get Keechee- run, Wyot run!"- which he does and loves, when I clap and cheer him on. He outruns Keechee every single time! Looking forward to more insight as well. Thanks again!

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KittynDoc I am sorry you are going through this but you are a good doggie mom so I am confident you will triumph in the end. You moved into new territory at a developmentally interesting time for Keechee. It's really important to step in now and prevent a dog fight.

 

Take a look at your space. Are there pinch points - like a door with a lot of boots and shoes that force both dogs into the same space? Does everyone have a spot in every room that you hang out in?

 

I agree with the gist of what Woodrat is saying. I think Wyot is using your authority to try to get a break from your wild child and even tip the scale his way. Cake will do something similar when she's had enough Fenris. Fen is much more thoughtful these days but at 90 lbs he can accidentally be too much and then she will come to me. Fortunately Fen isn't trying to provoke her but he does try to provoke Waki. I think you have a 2 year old male and he is doing 2 year old male things. When Fen is a toy hog I might take the toy away. I might stop playing or I might take the toy and give it back depending on the situation. OR I might get a bag of treats, the working collar and leash and do obedience with Fen. I think you need to work Keechee in obedience every day for a while. Wyot too just for "fairness" and because it will be good for him. They needs to learn Place, Sit, Stay and Down Stay in more than a casual way. You need to heel Keechee on leash to make the point that he isn't to molest Wyot and make your walking unpleasant. Cake was untrustworthy off leash for a long time and then she was good then she wasn't. We put her back on leash and it only took about a week or two before she decided it's better to behave and be free than to be on leash. She has't gone back. I bet Keechee will loath the restriction with Wyot free (as a good boy) and will quickly make the connection between the bad behavior and loss of freedom. It will then be his choice. Good behavior and freedom or the leash. I think I'd approach this with heeling for maybe 2 weeks to just get into the habit of walking nicely together. Then you will need to let him drag a very long leash for this so that you can catch him if he's bad and help him understand what behavior is good and what is no longer acceptable.

 

Resource guarding of you - when either get too aggressive they need to be put in time out. You may have to crate one for both for a while again. I believe that once you start being firmer with Keechee, setting and enforcing constant rules (for Wyot too - absolutely no growling over you) you will get this under control. It may take a few months, and it will be work that is not so fun but I believe you will see a real difference in a few months. I also think that Wyot will relax and diffuse somewhat once you are setting and enforcing a consistent rules, with Keechee getting away with less. When you want to work, put both boys in their places and in a stay (or crate or behind gates) then do your thing and ignore them. It may even be that you can kick them out into a fence area together and they will be fine because you are't there for them to behave badly for. They will get use to the new pattern. If you can, walk them before you settle in to tire them out. If you have the time, you can put them in their places and work, keeping in mind that you will have to correct them as they test the new rules. They are still very young with lots of energy so kicking them out into a fenced area may be best for all.

 

You may want to have separate play times for a while too. As they improve in behavior in other areas and get refreshed in obedience you will have an easier time re-initiating together play time.

 

It is important to make sure that what you do is perceived as fair. For example, if Fenris has a walk with Waki and then again with Cake, Waki needs some toy throwing to even out the fairness. If Fen goes shopping to the hardware store, Waki needs to get something off equal value. That sort of thing. Cake could care less but she is the object of adoration from the boys.

 

Engaging a trainer to tighten up obedience might be useful. Prevention is better than letting things get started and having to intervene. A pre-emptive Place-Stay is better than waiting for a growl and then intervening. A leash walk is better than trust and correct at this stage. They form habits fast. It will get better and everyone will be happier for the effort.

Edited by Sherab
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Woodrat is spot on! Both my dogs go into me for security when something is intimidating them, for Kai it's when my cats argue and my Jesse gets freaked out from flies! They will press into me or crawl on my lap or behind my head if we're on the bed. I usually let them get close but I also don't really allow them to glom onto me and I definitely don't want to coddle their insecurity. And when one is overwhelming the other I always intervene.

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Thank you all so far for insights- things that I may not have been seeing!! I have started to let Wyot out by himself in the morning, so he has a peaceful, non-competition "bathroom" time....and he was SO happy! I waited outside, and I saw a bounce in his step that I haven't seen for a while. Keechee took it in through the window....and as soon as he starts to try and jump and nip at Wyot, I say a firm NO...and he desists. I was, quite honestly trying not to coddle, and there was that fine line....I wanted Wyot to take charge, but I guess I need to give the jump start, so to speak...the support he needs to stand his ground, and for Keechee to see that. I think 10 months of super close quarters in the trailer, most of it in the winter, wore on everyone...they do have an outdoor pen that they are/were in, and we are thinking of expanding it, so it will be a 20 x 20, instead of a 10 x 10...there's an igloo dog house that they both love cozying into if it rains....but I will look into getting another one so they can each have their own (don't know if Keechee will honor that, as they do love laying on top of one another. )

 

I have taken to putting the buzz/stun collar on Keechee only, and this does not go unnoticed by Wyot. He stands taller, and feels like he is my helper. I beep Keechee when I need him to respond, and gratefully, he does (so no need to put on low shock). Actually, both of them do when we are hiking in the woods behind the house. Wyot hears Keechee's collar beeping, and responds just as well, but he always keeps an eye out on where I am, as opposed to mr. high strung, LOL. It helped to ground me, and put things back into perspective. These dogs are super smart, and even Keechee sits when I tell him to on the first command. The trick is to keep his impatient little butt on the ground long enough..hahahaha! I'll get there. We will get there. I was just so exhausted from this house building and being thrown by trying to make my products for events and shows not in one place, that the animals got put on the back burner, with me trusting that they knew their places. Thanks for helping me get back on track, and getting my attention back to what I probably instinctively knew, but it helps so much to have people's opinions and backing. Happy Holidays to all of you!!!! xoxo

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With all the things that happened, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some kind of acting out.

 

I'm glad things are turning around for you so quickly. I've noticed with the Shepherd, bad attention ranks higher than no attention, so if I want to get anything done in the house or for an art show I have to either put them out into the fenced area if I have no time or make sure to tire them out before I settle into the studio or start doing chores they can't really participate in. Yesterday I was running the wood splitter and the Shepherd decided at exactly 1 wheel barrel full, I'd had enough time splitting so he let himself and Waki out one of the gates (oh yay another project). Both came over to "help". And by help I mean figure out how to stop me from using the splitter. Also if I am much busier than normal I have to make sure to schedule big pay offs for them, like Dock Diving or something.

 

Anyhow good job! It's a sprint to a marathon, or something.

Edited by Sherab
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