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#21 Denise E.

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 07:31 AM

When we took our dogs to the vet, they gave Clay a hard time about the breed as "not real." They wanted to list them as mixed breed. We didn't really appreciate it. Clay referred the office staff to the website and they eased up a tiny bit. Educating one person at a time...

I hear you. My Hawk is almost 11 1/2 and the first time at a new vet the same thing. No, this isn't a real breed, it's not an AKC dog. I am so sick of hearing this, still to this day after all these years when people ask about him. I also refer them onto Kim's site.

 

Oh Yeah, just "LOVE" this, too.

My County has decided Tayamni is a Terrier Mix for the Rabies Tag (sight unseen).

Don't know what they decided Coffey is:  the new Vet's office registers with the County.

 

My old Vet - didn't really believe me (they are a breeding Vet of AKC dogs of course).

The new Vet is much more open - but the computer program only lists AKC breeds so Coffey is an "Other".  They note in the file that they are American Indian Dogs.

 

The sheep herding teacher is fascinated by the AI Dogs and he and his wife searched and read Kim's website.

Although one pro-AKC lady that was there for training said I could register both dogs as Malinois mixes so I could take them to herding trials.

 

I'm NOT inclined to do that.  It's too bad I'd have to lie to be able to join in a competition. 

Coffey is REALLY taking to herding sheep and some how picking up the subtle cues the trainer gives and responds properly (only our 2nd session).

 

Since we can't be in competition I am using this to mature Coffey, so he listens instead of tuning people out when his attention is on something else.

 

My question to the forum is what effect, negative or positive will I be changing (on the instincts of the AI Dogs).

 

Coffey is taking to this easy.  It doesn't seem to be a change to any instinct he has, maybe an evolution?

Tayamni likes herding, but she holds and cuts and in sheep herding it is about pushing/moving the sheep forward.

I want her to have the exercise but don't want her to lose her "primitive" instinctual hunting/herding ways  .......... 

 



#22 Sherab

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 08:20 AM

Here in Michigan we have many many hunters. When someone asks "what kind of dog is THAT" and gives Cake whale eye I point to Waki and say same as that one. Often they go quiet and are disappointed. If we are out w/o Waki and someone insists she's a coyote I give them a "what truck did you fall off of" look and say "have you ever SEEN a coyote?" which usually calms the person down. I'm thinking of trying out part unicorn or that depends on how much beer you've had or 100% silly just to liven things up.

Cake is approaching her third birthday. She's come into herself and has more confidence. I find that she is very picky with other dogs lately. She very much dislikes this off lead australian sheep dog. He flies straight at us ignoring his owner - very rude in dog talk. And gets right in our faces. She usually likes any dog that is smaller no matter how nippy, fierce and unfriendly. Larger dogs are hit or miss. I trust her to her own judgements. Waki is still mr everyone unless he is with Shiva and then he has appointed himself defender of the wheel chair bound - mostly because the evil Austrailian dog bit Shiva one time. The owners still let it run off lead and well out of sight. Waki has become much better at reading other dogs and is much more likely not to sit and cry at them if they are clearly the kind that don't get on with others. He just watches them go by and looks up at me and shakes it off now.

Edited by Sherab, 18 May 2016 - 08:20 AM.


#23 NyteByker

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 08:24 AM


Before I found Kim and Song Dog Kennels, I had taken a Petfinder or animal planet .... survey to find out which dog breed was right for me.

 

At the end 5 breeds were listed:  Chinese crested water dog, a poodle, a pointer, a Newfoundland and a Canaan Dog.

 

I was intrigued most by the Canaan dog and found out it is a tribal dog in Israel.

 

Of course in googling Canaan Dog rescues it also gave me SDK!  So I guess it was meant to be.

I didn't know there were any of the old "camp" dogs, only knew of Rez dogs.  Totally different.

 

Anyway, this morning on Animal Planet there was a show about dogs and it had a segment about Canaan Dogs and the lady in Israel who is trying to keep that breed of dog alive (sounded a lot like Kim) and she goes to visit Bedouins because they kept on using these "primitive dogs"  and still have some that are pure Canaan dogs and she is getting puppies that don't have modern dog in them to expand her breeding pool.

 

What was really interesting in that it spoke about the primitive dog being the ancestor of modern dog breeds and she felt it differed from the wild relatives (wolves, coyotes ....) in that these first primitive dogs wanted to be around people, protect them and work for them.  They were/are extremely smart and trainable.

 

The it went on to a dog that sneezes backwards.

 

I liked the way "primitive dog" was explained.

 

If Kim ever needs another outcross I wonder if a Canaan Dog from this lady would be an option ...

just a thought. 

 

It was neat to her that she is trying to save the primitive Israel dog from modern dog gene influx she loves these dogs so much. 

Denise, I know you posted that two years ago... but we are friends with a Canaan dog named Neve.  The owner, Tim, bought her from "a lady in Israel who is trying to save the breed."  It must be the woman you are referring to.  It is amazing to see the similar "primitive" qualities that Neve and Nakoma share in the way they run, the way they move, the way the are alert.  They also have differences too, (Nakoma is much friendlier), but I think that is a personality/nurture aspect than a "primitive" aspect... who knows.  Here are pictures of Neve; the eyes, the pointy-ness; the stance...  the build...   (slight differences but Nakoma and Neve eat different foods and live different lifestyles).  Neve - Canaan Dog.JPG Neve - Nakoma - and Penny.JPG

 

... Also, ... very interesting points on the herding instinct differences with Tayamini and Coffey.  We don't live anywhere near any farms or animals that need to be herded, but I find that when we have a group of dogs together, Nakoma does run along the sides of the dogs and sort of pushes them towards where he wants them to go (depending on whatever game they are playing at that moment... stick, ball, chase, wrestle, etc).  He also gives these slight little "nips" (but not to hurt) when "telling" the dogs where to go.  ... Also, he did that with me the first time we came upon a fisherman... at that time, we were doing night runs (at the end of fall), and so we had the beach to ourselves.  Then one day we went for a morning run, and he saw a man fishing off the jetties.  Nakoma wasn't used to seeing ANYONE on our runs, let alone some strange man standing up, holding a long "stick" in the distance, so he kept pushing me further and further away from the jetties towards the beach exits, while constantly looking back at that fisherman.  It was cute to see his first reaction to the realization that there is other life on the beach other than us and birds, but it was interesting to see him instinctively "herding" me to safety and be on guard.   



#24 NyteByker

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 08:30 AM

Oh yeah... and We still get a lot of the "What kind of dog is That"  questions, followed by confusion and disbelief when I say so.  But, there are still people who are very interested in learning about the AI dog, and so I also refer them to SDK.  When Nakoma was still just a tiny pup, people insisted he was a chocolate lab.  Now nobody knows what to think, lol. I will tell certain people that he's a coyote just to mess with them.  I love it.  :-)  But those times are far and few between.  (We live in a very "interesting" neighborhood, with very "interesting" people). And that's all I'll say about that. Lol.  



#25 Rickstefani

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Posted 18 May 2016 - 10:08 AM

Max was always listed as a shepard mix. Was not worth the effort after a while to change that.

#26 mommom

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 09:03 AM

I hear you. My Hawk is almost 11 1/2 and the first time at a new vet the same thing. No, this isn't a real breed, it's not an AKC dog. I am so sick of hearing this, still to this day after all these years when people ask about him. I also refer them onto Kim's site.

 

These dogs are more "real" than most of these foofy AKC breeds will ever be.  Don't let anyone intimidate you! :)


“The better I get to know men, the more I find myself loving dogs.”   ― Charles de Gaulle

“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”   ― Mark Twain


#27 Denise E.

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 09:14 AM

So cool to see the Caanan Dog and the AI Dog together! Thanks!

#28 Rickstefani

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 12:32 PM

Funny enough I was having a conversation with a friend that trains Border Collies for sheep herding.  She had never heard of the breed but did have some books on different breeds.  She broke it out and not only was the AI dog in there it also had a bunch on info on Kim.



#29 NyteByker

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 01:18 PM

^That's pretty cool!!!!



#30 Denise E.

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 02:32 PM

Funny enough I was having a conversation with a friend that trains Border Collies for sheep herding.  She had never heard of the breed but did have some books on different breeds.  She broke it out and not only was the AI dog in there it also had a bunch on info on Kim.

 

:)   B)



#31 Rickstefani

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 04:21 PM

Desmon Morris Dogs: The Ultimate Dictionary of Over 1,000 Dog Breeds is the name of the book.

#32 Allison

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Posted 20 May 2016 - 04:29 PM

Funny enough I was having a conversation with a friend that trains Border Collies for sheep herding.  She had never heard of the breed but did have some books on different breeds.  She broke it out and not only was the AI dog in there it also had a bunch on info on Kim.

 

YAY!

 

Sitka is a slinky nose to the ground kind of walker.  I do see that the border collies are wary, but we usually win them over if we can get close.


One could argue that evolution suggests were not idiots, but I would say, Well, no. Evolution just makes sure were not blithering idiots."

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#33 Felix

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Posted 22 May 2016 - 04:26 PM

Love all this info, such great conversations on here.

Willow was the first AI dog I met and people really do think she is a coyote. Which is just crazy to me. Janessa (my bestie) always has a bandanna on her because of that. 

I'm taking my little one to the vet for the first time in about a week and I'm interested to see how they react to her. 



#34 Sherab

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Posted 23 May 2016 - 05:36 AM

You can get it for a buck fifty used. Ha ha! now you can site the book as reference to any vet that wants to put "shepherd mix" in the record! http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/1570762198

That really is a "western" thing - it's recorded in a book so it must be true.

Edited by Sherab, 23 May 2016 - 05:38 AM.


#35 swade

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 02:42 PM

Just ordered it - may have to print out 1,000 copies to hand out in my travels; ONLY if I like the presentation ;-)

I picture is worth 1,000 words and I am getting a bit tired of explaining and handing out Kim's tiny card.

Thanks for the link!!!

Edited by swade, 27 May 2016 - 02:44 PM.


#36 swade

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 02:45 PM

Anyone heard of Carolina Dogs... very interesting, similar old world traits???

#37 NorCal

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 06:34 PM

I have definitely noticed this with my Dog.  He did not have a problem with dogs or people.  He was especially great with small children but certain dogs instantly had an issue with him.  It was noticeable enough off the bat they I watched for it.  He did great at the dog park but I always was careful.  He was never the aggressor but he did not back down either which made a few tense moments.


I have been wondering about this myself Zuni is great at the dog park ,appropriate with all dogs puppies people etc. But there have been a few dog that follow him around almost trying to start something. It's strange but I watch for it now too.

#38 LakeGirl

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:08 AM

Swade, thanks for mentioning the Carolina dogs! Just read the Wiki article on them and several articles by owners. VERY interesting, and how very much they look like the AI dogs. From what the owners describe the personality and temperament is similar too. Then there are the DNA studies and the fact that there have been skeletal remains of the Carolina dogs found in burial mounds throughout the Southeast. Neat!

Edited by LakeGirl, 30 January 2017 - 08:09 AM.

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#39 Denise E.

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 10:17 AM


Swade, thanks for mentioning the Carolina dogs! Just read the Wiki article on them and several articles by owners. VERY interesting, and how very much they look like the AI dogs. From what the owners describe the personality and temperament is similar too. Then there are the DNA studies and the fact that there have been skeletal remains of the Carolina dogs found in burial mounds throughout the Southeast. Neat!

 

 

There was a woman that used to come to our Dog Park and she got a rescue that she said was a Carolina Dog. 

 

I thought it might be a cross because the head is wider and it had thicker muscles than our AI Dogs.

It does look like the pics and videos I just saw on utube.

 

I read an article that in Georgia(?) a researcher tested some feral packs and found these feral dogs mixed with hounds.

 

I think the New Guinea Singing Dog is a close resemblance also.  It sings like my AI Dog.  Animal Planet says these New Guinea Singing Dogs have very high prey drives and not great family dogs.

That's the opposite of Tayamni.

 

There is a newer dog at our Bark Park.  Everyone has a hard time telling Coffey (AI dog) and Gidget (rescue from GA) apart.  Even us owners when we look quick as they go darting by or are playing with other dogs:

 

IMG_20161011_1846161.jpg

 

I can't find better pictures of her right now.  Will have to try and get her and Coffey when they are together ...






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