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I started a new job and brought some stress home. Also it's been a hard winter so the critters are coming "too close" to the house, too often per my GSDs in search of food (lately it's a noisy possum, owls and "other foreign deer" that don't belong). Finally the coyotes are getting too close and noisy. Plus our neighbor seems to think now is the time for plenty of target practice. All this has been causing some barkathons in my house and upsetting the calm. The impact to the pack is unacceptable, so I found this lovely book http://www.amazon.com/Talking-Terms-Dogs-Calming-Signals/dp/1929242360.

On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals [Paperback]Turid Rugaas (Author) I have it on Kindle.

 

We are now walking around yawning a lot. Seems to be working. Who knew. Also I can recommend Bach cello suites. Seems to be something calming in the deep base sounds.

Edited by Sherab
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Thanks for the tip! It's funny how every dog is different - low bass from the stereo is not something the dogs here like.

 

One thing I've done about barking was train Danza to come to me every time she starts barking. It's great; it breaks her focus, I think she really believes that she's telling me about what the fuss is, and she gets a nice little treat or pat on the head and then she is back on her way, keeping the noise deep in her throat and not really letting go with that ear-splitting howl she's got. I was afraid she might start using barking as a way to get something nice, but she doesn't do that.

 

It is really fun to hear her bark, then break off and come running to me with her tail wagging.

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Thanks Karen,

 

Our dynamic is a bit complicated.

 

Waki has emerged from winter like Bambi - all grown up. He is finding his place as an adult dog. Tara and Waki are struggling with their relationship and who is on top. She's built like a tank, lumbering and stubborn. He's agile, delicate framed and stubborn. They are about equally matched for brains. Both spook over things. So sometimes he is growling at her because he's afraid she'll take something he has and other times he starts it by trying to take something she has by being a little snarling ball. I am having a hard time letting them sort it out themselves because she is so much bigger than he is and she's a little special. Most of the time they are playing nicely together (even with toys). Also the signals seem mixed to me from both of them so I am getting some books on K9 body language.

 

When she was going off on barkathongs, he was snapping at her and getting between her and the window. We seem to have stopped all that with the yawning. She stops barking much faster and he doesn't try to compete with her by resource guarding - he tries to help calm her by yawning and stretching too. We have also been able to get it to be OK to have ordinary toys and hoofs again w/o conflict and with sharing with the yawning and down ward dogging. However if something is very desirable like marrow bones, we are still having issues (heavy supervision required). It doesn't help that Tara must be the dog version of OCD. I don't think for her it's about pack order. She has to have something in her mouth all the time to self comfort - so she will take what ever is closest at hand -a sock, a leaf, the nearest toy and latch on with a death grip. Hopefully Waki will figure out that she's a little bit special. Shiva tries to show him.

 

The whole thing was escalating so we seem to have beat it back to just tension with very desirable things. Changing the stress level at home was a big key. Any thoughts on stopping resource guarding between two nearly "equal" dogs other than make the house a land of baby gates? I'd like to get back to everyone in their "place" enjoying their treat (w/o physical barriers).

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Well after nearly a week of wandering around yawning and using the clicker with treats to make food bowl time joyful vs stressful we are progressing in a good direction. Waki seems to be learning that he can't control Tara's excessive barking by being a snarlball at her and that only spins both of them up. He seems to be learning that it's better to try to yawn or stretch at her to calm her back down. On the toy and treat front he has a keen sense of what belongs to who. If he eats a cracker and drops some crumbs those are HIS crumbs and he has a right to assert himself (but can be more polite, and in control of himself about it) and if Tara drops a crumb it's HERS and if HE tries to take it SHE has a right to assert herself and he accepts the rebuff. Same thing with toys. Yesterday Tara corrected Waki for trying to take her mouth toy by pinching his flank (toy still in mouth) and getting an eep out of him. Then later he was sniffing an object of great interest in the woods (probably mouse poop) and when she came along and horned in he popped her on the nose and got an eep out of her and she backed off. No blood, the right amount of correction and no escalation or over reaction to the situation. Waki also accepts the verdict that certain toys (Pooh bear) are Tara's first and foremost (her comfort toy) and he can borrow them when she has left them somewhere but not to get too attached if she needs them. So I am happy. Good thing he's so smart and trainable or we'd have a real problem. We just need to keep supporting these two developing the right language with each other.

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@Karen Snake will be on the couch cause he a couch potatoe and just growl real low until he feels the need to bark mal sits at the window snd barks crazy wich set everyone else off Ive never been able to quiet them once they all start

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Well now it's been 2 weeks of yawns & stretches and I can say we have a calmer, happier house. I think it is interesting that the 3 books I've looked at all start off talking about what a high bar we set for our dogs in general. One even likened our expectations to expecting a human to go through life with out ever once losing his or her temper. A noble aspiration of saints but a feat indeed.

 

Each book also indicates guarding to be common and natural behavior. Not the result of spoiling or scarcity. We haven't had an issue with it up until now. The only guarder we had was a 90 lb GSD who guarded the bathtub faucet but only if cold water were running. He would growl while drinking from it. No one cared.

 

One trainer even did a photo essay on one of her dogs that had titled in obedience, showing what his guarding issues looked like if she did not step in and set the tone. The simple advice was intervene, early, reset the tone always and consistently. After Waki's big day yesterday ( long trip with kids, bikes and chaos) we had 3 episodes of attempted guarding. We intervened and all went well. We think that one trigger is being over tired. When he goes down for the night he gets really cranky if someone wakes him up. Last night one episode was growling when Tara entered the bedroom (he's done this before a few times when I would characterize him as being over tired). We tried a few things that didn't work and finally figured out telling him it's just Tara and yawning by him and encouraging him to come see her works. Last night he even got off his bed and went over and offered an apology nose touch. So we wonder if he's not entirely awake and doesn't recognize her, although he doesn't do it for anyone else. Then we had the 3AM WE GOTTA GO fest. Everyone bunched up by the door and Waki pressed into it with his side. When I tried to move him out of the way he growled at me. I put his collar on and he was fine moving out of the way. We figure he thought he wasn't going to get to go out and got mad. When he got his collar he knew he was going too and he was fine with me moving him (had a big pee too). We didn't follow procedure (telling him he needs his "pants" to go outside) but it was 3AM....

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Well I feel good that we have the tools and information now to manage this situation. It seems to be a matter of learning triggers, teaching, correcting and redirecting and re-enforcing appropriate signaling. Thanks to Waki we old dogs have learned some new tricks. I like the photo essay book:

Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog [Paperback]

Brenda Aloff (Author)

 

Ms Aloff has titled dogs that are naughty too so even the highly trained and titled have no halos of perfection. Like any relationship worth having it requires constant cultivation.

 

Our dynamic of a learning, coming of age teen and elders that are declining in physical capability is an interesting one.

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The last 2 weeks everyone has been emerging from winter hibernation more from habit and desire than any real relenting of winter. Waki has again had exposures to strange people and dogs en mass. Now his approach is not as the submissive puppy. He's much more confident with people (at least 1 or 2 at a time - but not special needs kids, yet). He seems to be sorting out how to approach other dogs as his new grown self. He has always been very dog centric, crying and pulling if he sees one but doesn't get the satisfaction of a visit. Two weeks ago I'd describe his approach as awkward and unsure. Now that we've been using signaling, today's walk was very interesting. First we met a friendly shihtzu. We were polite and not over dominating with the smaller dog. Then we walked past Trevor who was in a "mood". The little white terrier sat but he wasn't sitting to invite us over and he snarled as we got close so instead of continuing to try to meet the dog as usual, he walked passed, shook it off and gave me an "oh well" look. Then we met a black and white collie who was super friendly. We played together. Finally we saw a black Scottie and a brown dog approaching. The woman walking them was chiding them for snapping at the collie. I had learned that when two dogs approach they naturally want to ark around each other and that walking straight on is very rude and stressful (humans and our walking paths!) so we stepped off the trail and Waki laid down on his own, sideways to their approach (the most polite). We still got snapped and snarled at but Waki stayed in his down. The woman continued to chide her dogs and tell them they needed to be obedient like that dog laying down. I didn't tell her it was his choice and I had nothing to do with it. Then Waki and I continued on, he looked up into my eyes and I gave him a yawn he smiled at me, glanced back at them and bounced forward on his way. We had a moment. I think I told my first joke in dog.

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LOL- :lol:

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Well we had a couple of good weeks but this past week end was rough. Waki had a couple of episodes and we brought back the time out crate. He has gone through a little growth spurt (slightly wider head and longer neck). I am hoping someone with an older dog can tell me about growth stages at 14-16 months and what's down the road. This reminds me very much of when his teeth came in and suddenly he couldn't be trusted off lead. On the other hand now he's doing really well off lead out side. Thoughts and comments welcome.

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Well teen dog boy is learning how to rein in his difficult emotions. Most complicated dog we've ever had - such a broad range of emotions every day- squally. That's what he is. Anyway we made a minor adjustment on how far apart the food bowls are and I have added an enforced nap between dinner and evening activities. So far it's gone well. He even spooned with Tara today. Also we are getting good at reading him and he is getting good at ramping down before an eruption and "time out" (our new least favorite pair of words). On the other hand he's been awesome consistently off lead and his discernment on the rail trail is getting very good. He isn't surging randomly at some bikes he's staying in a sit or down, he's reading other dogs and reacting appropriately. He didn't try to meet a dobie who was giving a hard stare and was very tense - that was excellent - even the owner approved. His "leave it" is solid. I think he got a little smarter - Is it possible these dogs can spell?

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It wouldn't surprise me if they could. I bet they are multilingual as well. :D

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Yes they CAN spell! Really it's just the tone and the way you 'spell' that they read. You met ours, the old ones that are no longer here, and this is a difficult time for him. He's testing you and trying to become big dog. Let them work it out otherwise he's going to keep reacting to YOU. If he knows it bugs YOU he's gonna keep it up. They won't hurt each other but it's best you stay out of it. Willie hated kids on bikes and it was because we didn't see that a kid on a bike charged our fence and it upset him. Our neighbor told us. Another kid was on a skate board and did the same thing to Bleu. They are protecting themselves.

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JudyK,

 

I agree with you whole hardheartedly. If the dogs can work it out themselves that's best. Our problem was that it was escalating and popping up everywhere, like poison ivy. He was pushing her into a fight and we weren't convinced that Tara wouldn't hurt him (she can crack a lamb shank bone and he can't). We also weren't convinced we were doing the right thing and at times didn't know what to do (me much more than Scott but then I have to admit that I am not naturally alpha myself - good thing I married the alpha male ) but here's how we have worked it out.

 

Scott felt that as pack leaders we should set the boundaries, so we set the following boundaries:

 

You may growl and nip if someone else tries to horn in on something in your immediate possession. You may not go "nuclear" at the get go.

 

If you try to take something in someone else's immediate possession you might get it if they give it to you or you must accept a "no" from them (growl and nip). You may pout but you may not pick a fight.

 

If someone shows interest in something not in your immediate possession and not something you were just playing with you may not pick a fight over it.

 

No one but Mom and Dad can keep someone from walking into a space, a room, a hall, etc.

 

Everyone has a bed and a "place". If it's empty you may squat but you may not try to run anyone off or pick a fight over a space that is not yours.

 

It's not just Waki that has been corrected but Waki was initiating most of the events.

 

What you say about not getting upset, being calm is very true. If a rule is broken it's important that we enforce it fairly and calmly ourselves. If I get tense thinking about how conflict might happen, everyone amps up and it makes conflict more likely, not because anyone wants a rise out of me but because I have set a tense tone as pack leader.

 

You are right, they are working it out and it's hard for them and it's less than enjoyable for us, but we are seeing progress. This morning we slept in - Tara hates deviation from schedule so she was cranky. Then during potty walk Waki found some rabbit poop. Miss Tara came over and he signaled her "my poop" (vs MY POOP, MINE MINE MINE) and she turned her head in acceptance and left him alone. Then on the way back they did their old dance they use to do for end of potty out side including the play bow and zoomies and the shared stick ritual. Something they stopped doing during the tensions. Breakfast was late so Waki was cranky but it went well and after Tara came into the living room (Waki didn't try to drive her off) and she picked up a cold toy. Waki immediately wanted that toy but he asked her for it nicely (low crouching approach, ears down) and she gave it to him (vs MY TOY, MINE MINE MINE ears up snarly charge). He then played next to her and then with her. He's a smart boy, and he loves his pack (including Mama Tara) or I am convinced none of this would be working. I am hoping that by setting these boundaries they can work it out themselves w/o our intervention and with out a major fight.

 

I expect we will do this dance with them for a few months until everyone is confident with adult Waki and Waki understands our expectations for impulse control but that's OK because we love them.

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I wish I could catch Danza barring Roscoe from our room quicker, but she's already 1 minute into it before I notice. This is a good reminder to keep it in mind more. Thanks.

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Welcome.

 

Waki is still good as gold around external dogs and people but I feel much more relaxed and confident reading the stranger dogs that we come into contact with.

 

Most of the week Waki has been his jovial self. He and Tara have been like "peas and carrots" except for one fizz up that started at bed time last night (over tired) and persisted until after breakfast this morning. Shiva needed a scratch on his leg attended to. Waki wanted to "help". I went to scoop Waki up just as Tara stuck her nose in too- this was just too much in the claustrophobic hall outside the bathroom so Waki fizzed. So we added a rule. If someone needs bodily tending to, all other dogs shall be put in a sit stay in order to quarantine the one needing attention, or shall be otherwise contained prior to beginning work. This evening Waki is back to "peas and carrots".

 

Scott also thinks maybe the coyote rut is having an impact. Our males are doing quite a bit of air poking. Tara can be very unreceptive and in all the time we've had Waki he's never once tried to mount her. Maybe so- all our fixed male animals have retained some friskiness. Right now he's licking her muzzle and yawning at her to calm her (she was barking). Don't worry little one, some day there will be a Waki sized female (she may still bite).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, the coyote rut and the fox rut are over (we have both on the property) and a week of biblical rain and flooding has washed away any pheromones. Waki has been sweet, playful, snugly and joyous. He spooned with Tara, played with Tara, ate bones in line of site with Tara, rolled around on the bean bag with bunches of toys with Tara. If we go another quite week I will put an alarm in my calendar for rut season.

 

Waki took a road trip with us this week end. He was a bit fearful at first in the hotel. He really didn't like the long hall with the little kids running to and from the pool and the banging noise of the door to the pool (we were a few rooms down) but his confidence built each time we walked around. We did use the yawn and stretch in the room if a screaming child or sudden bang got his attention and that did settle him. Finally he was his typical relaxed but coy self when we were out and about. He also did great at the bike race- with billions of bikes, kids, strange people, on and off lead dogs and blasting music. Impressing people and getting complements on his ears and perfect size (many women seem to approve of his size).wakisview.jpg Imagine being knee high with all this going on....view2.jpg Here he lay down all by himself. I didn't ask and he was very interested in the big fluffy dog (and the 3 others that are out of the shot) but didn't try to pull to get to them. april2013.jpg

littleone.jpghunting.jpgracespectator.jpg

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Awesome pics- :) Reminds me of J's camping event last year. http://www.iidoba.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2763

So glad we could give you hope, at the time.. lol

 

 

And great that he is out of the throes of external hormonal crazies!

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Apparently the internet is awash in stories of fixed male dogs scaling fences for love, fighting intact males for love, coupling with females in heat and causing false pregnancies. http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/neutered-male-dogs-can-still-have-sex

http://www.boxerworld.com/forums/behavioral-issues/111972-neutered-dog-mating-im-so-confused.html

http://www.vetinfo.com/vets/answers/when-dog-neutered-can-they-breed

 

Meanwhile little Waki is not responding to the same things that were triggering him just a week and a half ago. I have learned some doggy calming signals that are very helpful and some doggy body language queues (although no one seems to have anything about mating behaviors - besides the VERY obvious). Finally I have learned that a fixed male can have sperm for 1 month past the fixing and that fixed males can demonstrate an array of behaviors, including such as climbing fences and getting tied with a female.

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