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Backsliding In Crate Training


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So, Kitchee was great the third night after we got him, finally sleeping through the night. Last night was awful, for us and for him! He practically cried all night with intervals of a half hour or so of sheer exhaustion from the exertion and emotions, I'm sure. I do eventually go downstairs and take him out, which of course he does relieve himself...then, going back in, he settles after I say goodnight and sleep (words Wyot also got to know and associate with his crate, the lights going off and going in for the night)....not three minutes later, the wails start...and keep going. Wyot isn't anywhere near the crate, and he seems to go far away from the cries. (poor guy probably has his sleep disrupted too!)

 

The two boys are great together! They play most of the day with no problems. We have individual time with each of them as well, so the younger one has undivided attention for his training (otherwise his attention gets diverted into play), and Wyot gets his undivided attention so he doesn't feel like he's out in the cold. I am thinking that they are together in their small pack most of the time, so when it's time to be crated, Kitchee doesn't want to be alone! I don't blame him, but I don't know how to make crate training easier for all of us! Any ideas would be great...

 

Oh, and during the day, they BOTH go in Kitchee's crate (the door is open), and they play and tumble in there a few times a day- Wyot fits just enough to sit or curl up tightly...

 

Thanks from this tired puppy Mom! (LOL!!!)

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Oh my. I feel you.

Khya sleeps through the night (mostly) - when she has to get up she lets me know - but the odd night it was 1:30 AM and I am up at 5:00.

But the banshee wails. In the car - is my son is not with her. If she wants to play & I don't. If she is nippy and I say "no". Growl/yip/wail.

The circles under my eyes deepen.

Got a nail scratch in my left eyeball courtesy of Khya yesterday. Yup.

:(

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Backsliding was what Rune was famous for. He'd go a couple weeks sleeping through the night perfectly in his crate and then suddenly with no warning it was like he forgot everything and started over screaming at the top of his lungs all night long.

This went on for months and months and got so bad at one point I resorted to sleeping in a tent in my yard for a week and left him in the house to scream.

 

Wish I had some suggestions, but by 9 months I had to give up crate training all together because he was becoming a danger to himself every time I had to leave him home. He didn't mind the crate itself and would go in regularly to nap on his own accord if the door was open, but the moment I shut it behind him the banshee wails would start.

I will say, for those of you with screamers, check your dog's teeth regularly. Rune did a number on his trying to chew his way out of a wire crate, and once they grow in their adult teeth that damage is there for life.

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Backsliding was what Rune was famous for. He'd go a couple weeks sleeping through the night perfectly in his crate and then suddenly with no warning it was like he forgot everything and started over screaming at the top of his lungs all night long.

This went on for months and months and got so bad at one point I resorted to sleeping in a tent in my yard for a week and left him in the house to scream.

 

Wish I had some suggestions, but by 9 months I had to give up crate training all together because he was becoming a danger to himself every time I had to leave him home. He didn't mind the crate itself and would go in regularly to nap on his own accord if the door was open, but the moment I shut it behind him the banshee wails would start.

I will say, for those of you with screamers, check your dog's teeth regularly. Rune did a number on his trying to chew his way out of a wire crate, and once they grow in their adult teeth that damage is there for life.

Wow! Thank you for the sage advice. Of course, last night, Kitchee had a perfect night. I closed the door on the crate, said the "sleep" and "goodnight", stayed and caressed his little nose through the grate and kept saying calmly to sleep, and see you tomorrow (like they understand, lol!) I took off my boots and put them right where he could see them....my thinking (or hoping), that this was another signal that we were all home to stay and sleep, the day being done.

 

Unfortunately, I suffered insomnia last night, and the house was quiet ALL night, until hubby got up and took both of them out and the usual happy greeting from both...Ok, so, I am hoping that Kitchee is NOT a serial backslider,...but...well. I think if all goes well, at some point, when he is a bit older, he'll probably end up roaming free when I am sure he is completely potty trained...at night I open the gate to let Wyot into his place in the living room, so he is free to roam back and forth at will- he changes places at night from under the coffee table to the bench in the entryway (under and on top of it), or by my desk on the carpet.

We shall see how this goes, and I keep my fingers toes and everything else crossed! :blink::P

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Oh my. I feel you.

Khya sleeps through the night (mostly) - when she has to get up she lets me know - but the odd night it was 1:30 AM and I am up at 5:00.

But the banshee wails. In the car - is my son is not with her. If she wants to play & I don't. If she is nippy and I say "no". Growl/yip/wail.

The circles under my eyes deepen.

Got a nail scratch in my left eyeball courtesy of Khya yesterday. Yup.

:(

Oh, my! These guys are lucky they are so cute, lol!!! Khya probably misses her alpha, your son...the nippiness is starting to reach a crescendo, but gratefully, when I clap and say NO, he redirects immediately...a few more tries and then he goes off to find his toys...I have gotten the wayward scratch from them being so overexcited, and they have sharp little nails, don't they! I hope your eye is ok...hubby had a cornea scratch. Not fun...but, we have to remember to enjoy every minute of puppydom, because it is amazing how quickly they grow!! Have a wonderful week! xo

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Don't know what to tell you on the crate. If you are working outside the home and can't take the dogs with, then there isn't much choice. I think there are good craters and bad ones. We were fortunate to have dogs that crated very well when we were both working outside the home. We've had Fen out to a site for working service dogs and they cover the crates with blankets (or cushions) if the dogs in training get fussy. That might work or the pup might pull the blanket in through the slats.

 

Fen was terrible then great with the crate until he wasn't and because of the teeth thing right now he only crates when we are home. Oddly enough he crates well if someone is there, provided the crate isn't too far away. That's ok. I can work with that. Because he's a different magnitude of dog we want him to crate well. Now we are focusing on long boring stays in the crate while we do things in the same room. Fen gets a bone or some other interesting thing. There is some fussing but it's very minor. We'll often put on soothing music, if it doesn't interfere with what we are doing.

 

I think someone once slept with the crate in the bed and that worked.

 

Fen is going through a fear period right now and it's making him needy. Sometimes during growth spurts they get weird. Also something to consider.

 

We mostly don't crate. Both Cake & Waki slept on the bed with us as wee pups. Fen had an open crate next to the bed and a baby gate so was not "closed in" with the crate but he was confined to a small space - pen with a crate in it. They let you know when they have to go. Zero accidents. We don't have a big reason for crate training for the little dogs. We aren't in a hurricane evacuation zone, so not emergency disaster reason to train. We aren't doing competition or service work with them so no one is going to kick us out of the club for bad crating. We value sleep more than the risk of an accident so we were willing to experiment. Both AIDs had the presence of mind to not fall off of things but Fen was / is an idiot where that is concerned so we made him a bed-pen next to our bed. I don't know why an open crate and a baby gate is "better" than a closed crate in the dog mind but it worked.

 

If you have an area that can be gated off that is dog proof that can be an option for during the day.

 

Your pup may be capable of more trust and might be asking for that. The risk of one accident is often worth the experiment that works and provides sweet sleep. Beyond that, there may be some good You Tube videos on how to crate train or it might be good to consult a trainer for advice.

 

On the nipping there's a really good thread involving a penny jar and a water bottle.

Edited by Sherab
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We abandoned the crate fairly early in Kaposia's training. She just did not take to being restricted like that, obviously did not regard it as her "safe place" and also did a number on the crate trying to chew her way out. Her teeth are all fine...beautiful in fact. Every time she yawns I compliment her on those "lovely snappers." While it lasted, the crating worked well when we traveled. Now she's in a harness with a Kurgo strap to the seat belt buckle. One thing we've found though, as sold the harness to seat belt straps get twisted up and sometimes if the dog moves around a lot a leg will get entangled. We added a swivel clip where the strap attaches to the harness. No more twisting and tangling.

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Hmmm....lots of food for thought. I like the clock idea! I did that with my first dog, a black Lab.

 

I just know I want peace for the older dog, and want to avoid the night time run around/crazies, howling playfully (which they do). Want to instill nighttime routines- One dog was easy, but when you add the second one, well, HE KNOWS the other one is "out there", and he is NOT. Hubby does not like animals in the bed or on furniture...but they do have a nice bench, which Wyot can only lay on (Kitchee can't reach- yet)....Wyot knows the order of things and I do know he misses hanging with us in the living room- he knew the routine, eat dinner, go settle on the couch- while he settled at our feet under the coffee table- I try to get him to come when Kitchee passes out in the kitchen, but then he whines to go back to the other side, where Kitchee is. We will be selling the house come spring, and building a home, so we can't afford an accident, staining floors, smell, etc.- I use the enzyme stuff to nuetralize the piddle puddle smell on the tile floor. He has at least 2-3, maybe 4 accidents a day- some days, only 1. As soon as he gets the hang of it, I'll follow their lead, and see what happens.

Last night was amazing, not a peep, even when he went in, just too bad I couldn't sleep...!

 

I am now feeding him by putting his food bowl in the crate....I don't let him in there to eat unless he sits first (not easy for a very excited puppy to do, lol, but he does)...I am with them during the day, and he hasn't had an accident with poop, but he still, for some reason will leave a piddle puddle...and I am pretty vigilant about making sure I say "outside" and "go" (which to him means to go potty)...he pretty much poops on demand, which I find amazing (I say go, Kitchee, go go go poop!- and he does!)...I know it is just a little over a week, so I'm expecting a lot from our very smart little pups....Wyot just looks at me with a hanging head...because he knows what Kitchee just did piddling on the floor is a no no...I just hope he doesn't decide to start that, to counteract or mark...SHEESH! :blink::o:P

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Oddly I haven't had a lot of problems with the crate. After the first few nights of learning to hold her bladder and me taking up water she settled in. She knows that the crate means bedtime (for the most part). Haru gets a toy and her elk antler to chew on while she falls asleep or if she wakes in the middle of the night. In the morning when I get up, she goes out and then we come back in and eat. The problem I've had is during the day putting her in an exercise pen. She does well while she can see or hear us, but as soon as we leave she starts banshee screaming. We're not there to hear it, but I think it's an early separation anxiety sign. I'm going to try leaving a radio playing or the tv and see how she does. I may even try the clock.

 

Also, we too are having problems with complete house training. I've got a patch of sod in the house for her to pee on. She won't poop on it unfortunately unless she's enclosed in the exercise pen while I'm at work and Matt isn't home. She does good if I lead her over there, though sometimes she is stubborn even when I know she HAS to need to pee. It seems to me though that she just gets so caught up in playing and is then "Oh! I need to potty!" and just goes right there, not thinking about the sod. It's a work in progress. Since we've been using the exercise pen the accidents have become much less. I let her out, we go potty and walk, then she goes back in. It moves during the day to the living room to be where we are, and back to the kitchen on linoleum in the morning.

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I want to find a toy to put in the crate, but I'm always paranoid if he rips it up and accidentally chokes on a piece of material...YIKES, silly me. I could put an antler in there for sure, but I have to get another one, because the one I have is Wyot's...I will definitely try that for sure. (If I steal any of the racks that we have hanging, hubby would have ME hanging up there, lol!)

 

I have left the radio on every time we had left to go somehwhere, and it seems to calm them down, and break up the quiet, when they know they are alone. I just think Kitchee is distracted by the older dog, and like you said, gets caught up in playing, so pees on the floor. Other than those few, he's pretty much got that he should "go" outside. Works in progress...and us trying to figure out their smarts, lol!! Kitchee is a crafty one, and he is not afraid to tackle, climb and play all over Wyot as if he's a jungle gym! His whole head ends up in Wyot's mouth (they do this naturally, and he would never hurt him, and Kitchee takes it in complete stride and confidence, continuing the little devil dog sound that he emits when he wrestles.

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Haru is so tiny looking. I can imagine she could be drinking and it could be coming right back out of her.

 

When Waki was little we had luck with something sort of like this: https://www.amazon.com/Regalo-Portable-Playard-Outdoor-Washable/dp/B072BPGW6F?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-osx-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B072BPGW6F

 

I don't know if the open top is what made the difference but he hated the crate.

Edited by Sherab
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Both the dogs actually like having something over their heads....like a cubby. They nap on a rug only when the sun shines through the kitchen sliders...otherwise, they are under the bench in the entry (I have rug remnant pieces over the tile floor under there), and under chairs or the table...

 

This afternoon, Kitchee left Wyot's side, and went into his crate all on his own and slept there! So, I don't know how this will go. We shall see...

 

LOL about little Haru and drinking while having it come right back out of her...she is so cute and so tiny! Kitchee looks so tiny,but in comparison to Wyot...I am so drinking in the puppy time... :wub:

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What a fascinating thread! I almost feel like I have a puppy too!

(without the sleep deprived nights! ;) )

 

Tayamni (female) as a young pup could spend an hour in the back yard (on leash) not going when I knew she had to go!

I think there are old threads about "pee pee songs".

She would do that - or Not do that, BUT for months after I got her - she had to go out to pee twice a night, then down to once a night then FINALLY sleep through the night.... that was exhausting (for me)!

 

Coffey (male), the second pup, slept through the night after one week - my sister had it easy - I was SOOOOo jealous - LOL!

 

Both pups we tried to be VERY pro-active on house training. 15 - 20 minutes after eating, 15 minutes after drinking, before crating, Before ANY play time, car rides, or training sessions, etc etc and when pup wakes up from a nap. OH and most important find! About 20 minutes after Dog Park play - if drank a lot of water! (or swim park - Tayamni drinks AS she swims!)

 

I wonder if it is harder to crate the second pup .... KittynDoc may be onto something ... ?

Coffey crated at night OK, but after a month or so - protested terribly about crating during the day! It calmed for a little while an then about 9 months .... he pulled the sheet on the crate in with him ... and tore up a couple of retries. No more crate for him.

 

Coffey has a little bit of separation frustration (not anxiety .... it happens AFTER 5 hours of people not being home). I wonder if we did something different crating him would he not have torn up my couch or the drywall by the front window?

We keep crates in our bedrooms. Maybe should have moved Coffey's crate to the Living Room during day? Crates in bedrooms get folded up when dog's a potty trained. They have beds on floors and of course can sleep on beds. Poor Kelli in a twin bed with 2 AI Dogs!!!!!! The dogs are in different rooms though out the night at least. I have woken up and found them in the living room on the couch! Guess snoring bothers them sometimes!

 

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Breakthrough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :):):) Kitchee stands by the kitchen sliders now...he's quiet about it, but, as you said, Denise, it's that vigilance of taking them out after they drink, eat, play, etc....He gets it- and when I say need to go outside? He wags his tail, facing the door, and waits for me to clip on his leash.

 

Now, the bigger issue...it has been the THIRD NIGHT since Kitchee SLEPT through!! :wub: I hope I am not jinxing myself, lol! But, I did a bit of training with him, as far as staying by the crate (which is in the kitchen), making him sit, and throwing a tiny treat into the crate. I did this several times during the day, about 5 minutes each. I also started to put his food bowl in there when it is meal time for the dogs. I make him sit outside the crate while I place the bowl inside for him to eat- and you know how hard it is for a puppy to keep their excitement down about food! Now, during the day, he goes in to take a nap at times (I leave the door open)...the dogs tussle less inside the crate, which I guess is good, because Kitchee feels like this is HIS territory. I also think he has synced with our rythms of the day and night. He already knows the signals of powering down for the day. We exercise them a lot, taking both for a walk in the woods, and it makes for more freedom for Kitchee to try and follow Wyot as he does his leaps and jumps over huge tree trunks, and runs his obstacle course through the trees! Kitchee changes course and always follows Wyot as much as is possible...he runs FAST for a little one! Wyot is responsive when we hook the e-collar on him..but, I think psychologically, he knows this is his big boy responsible collar. I don't even have to use the vibrate on his collar....he just comes running when I call! :lol: Funny how doggy psychology works....

 

So, hopefully we have gotten into a routine, and for the most part, we have reached the goal. I am sure there will be a little bit of not quite catching his cues, but overall, as he matures in the next weeks and gets into the routine more, it will stick. It's amazing what actually happens in just two weeks!! It's two weeks today, and it feels like we've always had him.

 

What a great little pack we have!!!!

 

Denise, love hearing about your dogs are....and we too get rid of the crates once they are potty trained.

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I want to find a toy to put in the crate, but I'm always paranoid if he rips it up and accidentally chokes on a piece of material...YIKES, silly me. I could put an antler in there for sure, but I have to get another one, because the one I have is Wyot's...I will definitely try that for sure. (If I steal any of the racks that we have hanging, hubby would have ME hanging up there, lol!)

 

I have left the radio on every time we had left to go somehwhere, and it seems to calm them down, and break up the quiet, when they know they are alone. I just think Kitchee is distracted by the older dog, and like you said, gets caught up in playing, so pees on the floor. Other than those few, he's pretty much got that he should "go" outside. Works in progress...and us trying to figure out their smarts, lol!! Kitchee is a crafty one, and he is not afraid to tackle, climb and play all over Wyot as if he's a jungle gym! His whole head ends up in Wyot's mouth (they do this naturally, and he would never hurt him, and Kitchee takes it in complete stride and confidence, continuing the little devil dog sound that he emits when he wrestles.

 

KittynDoc, definitely try the elk anter. I found one that was specifically for puppies at Petsmart. I soak in just a little bit of salt free chicken stock and give it to her when it's bedtime. After a few nights of that she goes into her crate without protest because she knows that's when she gets her special treat. It's also nice because if she wakes up during the night, that keeps her occupied rather than her screaming to get out. That was when I started seeing my restful nights.

 

It's great to hear that you're finally getting some sleep again. Also, I'm sorry, it seems I've semi taken over two of your threads. I promise that's not my intention!!!

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Haru is so tiny looking. I can imagine she could be drinking and it could be coming right back out of her.

 

When Waki was little we had luck with something sort of like this: https://www.amazon.com/Regalo-Portable-Playard-Outdoor-Washable/dp/B072BPGW6F?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-osx-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B072BPGW6F

 

I don't know if the open top is what made the difference but he hated the crate.

 

Sherab, I'm having the complete opposite. While Haru does great in the crate, I've got an x-pen for her and she HATES it. She's fine as long as it's in the room with us, but if we walk over to the living room to sit down and don't move it she starts her banshee wails. It's more of a she's not being included in what we're doing thing I think. Like I said, if it's in the living room and we're there she fine. It's when she gets put in the kitchen. I guess that's when she knows one or both of us are about to leave or start doing stuff where we don't include her. We tried using the spray bottle last night for the first time to stop the barking, but she HATES it. She's both fearful and hateful of it and most of the time barks louder. I can also see the slight bit of fear and it hurts my heart :'( Ugh, children.

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Samie, you haven't taken over...we are all here to share!!! I love this place to come to for all this. :wub:

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Samie, you haven't taken over...we are all here to share!!! I love this place to come to for all this. :wub:

 

I concur. I hope the Forum Moderators don't mind :o

It's funny ^_^ there are a lot of Topics that have mini conversations within them!

 

I personally LIKE that so many people add comments, suggestions and observations :)

 

I understand as far as "searching" for something later on that it is best to keep to the Thread Title or related.

 

I LOVE this Forum as there is a certain camaraderie I enjoy here that not many other forums attain ;)

 

:D Thank you Moderators and Administrators!

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It is good to see how everybody is doing and all the great ideas. Sophie is doing really well with crate training. We keep it in the kitchen which is open to our living room where we spend most of our time. We sometimes bring her in to sit on the couch with us while we are all winding down. She loves her crate and goes in and out when the door is open. We have tried both covered and uncovered and she is definitely more content with it covered. She is on a pretty strict potty schedule - first thing in the morning; right after waking from naps I offer her a drink then we go out; 5 to 10 minutes after meals. She still forgets sometimes while she is playing but we watch her pretty close and have stopped her in the process of squatting a couple times and scooped her up to go immediately outside. She recognizes the go outside preparation routine - we have several inches of snow and it is cold so I always bundle up for potty time and short walks, which we take twice a day. She loves the snow! At night she sleeps in our bedroom on her bed on the floor near our bed with a bully stick and a soft toy. (Tethered safely so she can't get off of her bed) She has slept through the night since day 2! She sits when asked - especially if there is food or a treat involved. She understands “no” and “outside” and "potty” although sometimes she refuses to comply right away.

The only problem we have is with our cats - actually just one of them - Sam is our 2 year old 15 lb male who loves to wrestle/play with her. He puts up with a lot of chewing but he lets her get pretty aggressive with biting hard before he moves! Then she barks and jumps around him and makes it hard for him to escape. We have starting putting ourselves in between them making eye contact with Sophie and telling her no sternly and sometimes removing Sam from her reach. We just don't want her to think she can get away with too much. She doesn't bother the other younger female cat, Hannah much because she slaps Sophie and gets up out of the way quickly.

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Hi kadar,

 

Sounds like Sophie is doing well with your family :rolleyes:. Sophie in time will get bigger than Sam so it is good you are intervening now.

 

Coffey, in my household, started chasing one of my cats in the last year, after he was 2 Yrs old.

He is playing - but he does have a prey drive which I guess causes this lack of impulse control..... it has been a work in progress, we have come a long way (meaning he know mostly jogs after the cat, ha ha).

 

It must be awesome to see a pup frolicking in the snow! Glad to hear that Sophie loves her little den (crate).

Thanks for the update. They GROW so fast!

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Previous photo is Sophie and Sam when they are both tired!

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Previous photo is Sophie and Sam when they are both tired!

So jealous. That's how I want Haru and my cat to be. My cat has finally sniffed Haru, but still wants nothing to do with all that puppy energy. it will come with time. Maybe when she's a year old :lol:

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Oh, how so very very sweet!!! Eventually, the animals all figure out there ways...I love when Kitchee and Wyot go nap. At the moment, they are both together under the bench in the entry, Kitchee is against the wall, behind Wyot's rump, with his head resting on his back....

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