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#1 sheeshsmith

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Posted 10 November 2016 - 07:51 PM

I'm nervous to ask, but very curious on peoples thoughts. I have had two friends recently get puppies (not American Indian Dogs!). The dogs were both sent to training and came home with Ecollars to continue their training.
What's the deal with these collars? Do people think they're awful? I did feel the "shock" and am gathering that it is more of a nudge/reminder to the dog?
I plan on training my pup on my own. Trying to read as much as I can. Have been looking online at videos of E collar training.
Thoughts?


#2 NorCal

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Posted 11 November 2016 - 06:43 AM

i think they have a place in training some dogs (like for recall in wide open spaces or for highly reactive dogs) but I think they should be a tool not matter of course like some trainers go straight to. IMHO.

#3 Denise E.

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Posted 11 November 2016 - 11:37 AM

tough love is a form of positive training.

 

I have shocked myself to feel what the dog would feel and I think the collars when used as a tool can be helpful if the situation warrants it.  I used it for another dog (not an AI Dog) that had some issues.  It helped reinforce when couldn't get to the dog when giving a command.

This was not the only tool used and I may think about it for some training if Coffey doesn't respond to all the other methods - I'm also waiting to see if he settles on his own and doesn't pick up any more bad habits from my Mom's dog.

 

Tayamni's personality is calmer than Coffey's and she would not be a good candidate for the e-collar  IMHO.

I think that needs to be looked at also.  We never want to harm our dogs psychologically even if something won't physically harm them. 



#4 Denise E.

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 10:01 AM

OK.  So we got Coffey his e-collar "bow tie" (that's what we tell him we are putting on him every day - we take it off at night) so we tell him it's his daytime bowtie ....  he doesn't mind having the collar put on and he seems to like wearing it.

 

Coffey wearing eCollar.jpg

 

I got one from Petco as it was on sale and money is tight right now.  I would have liked to spend twice as much to get a sporting dog remote training collar (e-collar).

 

We read and read about different training methods and since we are focusing on his off-leash not listening and his on-leash excited lunging - this is where we are using it - at varied levels of strength depending on the level of distractions.

 

We put it on him for a few days before ever turning it on.  Just so he wouldn't associate collar on / collar off.  So far so good on that.

 

We have been using it for over a week and have mixed reviews about effectiveness - maybe should have gotten a sport dog e-collar?

I know, I know it's only been a week - but there are times he completely ignores it!  I don't really like using it on high and for long seconds ....

 

Here's the bad:  

Our dog park was closed to we went to another park to walk the dogs on leash.  Well somehow Coffey's harness unbuckled and WHOOSH!!!!!!!! he was off SO HAPPY running all around!

Both our hearts (Kelli and I) stopped because we knew there were no gates and the road next to us is four lane (45 mph).

 

We called for Coffey to come back - ha ha laughable - we tried.....

I pressed the ecollar button, no response, it didn't phase him at all,

I upped the strength, finally up to 3/4 highest - still nothing.  He was so happy running and he zoomed right by me toward the road!

 

Then he got to a mulched area and quickly slowed to a stop .....  to PEE!!!!!!!  I saw him look around as he was stopping and released the button.  (He look around usually means he can feel the sensation from the collar).

We had let both dogs out before leaving the house.  He must not have gone because he was peeing and peeing - so Kelli was able to get over to him and snap the leash on his collar while he was doing his business with just a slight interruption.

 

He really had a full bladder.  Otherwise I would have thought the sensations of the collar made the reaction / cause his brain to 'think' he needed to stop and pee.

 

Glad this turned out well and he didn't get out to the street ..... !  That still scares me   :(

 

The GOOD:

1.  Barking in back& side yard at everything around him ....  (used a lowest setting needed (about a 5 low for Coffey)  settings go 1 - 9 low and 1 - 9 high.

There are times we tell him "Enough" and "Thank you" which means just that.  OK no need to bark anymore.

Tapping on a window and saying it is all Tayamni needs.

Coffey thinks ha, ha.

 

So we put in place we give command once and if Coffey doesn't listen we give command again and use 'remote trainer' on low.

We still do this for the come command because he thinks opossums, squirrels and kids in neighboring yards are more important to focus on than listening to us.

I don't care if he meanders in and wants to keep a watch (looking back) as he's making his way in - just don't get halfway in and decide to turn back and walk away.

 

So, in just a week:

He is watching bicyclists, drones, squirrels, the neighbor with her dog, opossums, the sprinkler next door etc. in other yards instead of running to fence and barking at them!

He has his moments  - but is listening again when we say "enough".

 

He is alerting when in the house but not usually full on barking at passers by on the street.  We haven't used the ecollar in the house.  We use the other methods of distraction and relaxing we have learned.

I believe he is applying the appropriateness from his backyard training.

 

2.  Have had limited exposure and good success about on-leash excitement passing by other dogs.  We haven't gotten too close yet but have used these opportunities to remind him to focus back on Kelli when she tells him to.

A short burst from his average Low setting has worked very well for this! 

 

UNKNOWN:

1.  Still need to train about the lunging (on-leash) when kids run by (at festivals, etc) - he doesn't want to attack them, either he wants to play or herd them....   :blink:

 

2.  Still need to train to stop the fence running when a neighbor dog is running also.

     We will get opportunity when up at Mom's house end of month.  At least the free running incident has given me some insight that I need to start higher than his low setting to get his attention during the fence running.

 

We would love for the dogs to meet on neutral territory (the street) I think this would help if they got to sniff each other - but the other owner's aren't amiable to it or don't see the benefit.  The fence is chain link but has the privacy slats and that doesn't help, I think it creates more reason for their dog to run and obsess.  (the dog does on the other side of the fence does this whether dog's in Mom's yard respond or not).

 

Will update as we make more progress!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#5 KittynDoc

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 10:31 AM

My hubby did one training session with Wyot in the field...WHILE STILL ON THE LEASH or better yet, a long rope. The buzz definitely got his attention. He looks up, and you need to keep pressing the button for buzz or lowest shock while calling him/her to you- until they get to you, then you stop and praise. He trained him for about a half hour. Now, when I call him (on leash) when he is further away than I'd like, and want to work on recall, if I put my hand to my chest (this is where the remote hangs, around your neck), he immediately starts to come towards me, and sits! Smart little bugger associates that  with recall I guess. I still have to do more training, but I've also started to change direction on him when he starts pulling ahead of me, and do a quick 180 , and he follows me, If he does it again, I keep changing direction and saying "this way", and he follows. This, apparently is a technique to establish that you are the pack leader, and YOU tell him/her which way you want themr to go. I take every opportunity to do that when doing potty breaks. I also make sure that I tell him where I want him to go, otherwise, the whole yard is a minefield of poop, LOL! So far so good. 

 

Will also keep you all updated as we continue!



#6 Denise E.

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 10:42 AM

Forgot to add this before:

 

Has anyone heard about this guy?  Don Sullivan

Is his program / the non-ecollar collar training any good?

 

Since Coffey had all his basic, on-leash and, off-leash, recall, etc training as a puppy and did well and this reactiveness & stop listening off leash ramped during "teenage" time,

I have been wondering about this system to reinforce the recall and some leash work ....

 https://dogfather.tv/

 

http://theperfectdog.com/



#7 KittynDoc

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 06:52 AM

I am following Doggy Dan, a trainer from Australia...he also has a non e collar training, which is where I got the on leash "follow me" technique of turning right around on my heel in a 180 or 90 degrees, thereby having Wyot follow ME, and not pull on the leash. It takes time, but it works. The other thing, he has for recall, is don't pet the dog and all that unless YOU call him to you, NOT when he jumps on you. This is a way of establishing them to come to you from anywhere, as they know they will get the "good dog (boy/girl)" with lots of petting and positive reinforcement. No dog treats either! 

 

I have stopped giving treats (he also does not really respond to that out in the field anymore anyway). He does not like to be reigned in, and can start to bite his leash, jump up on me and paw me...I stand calmly, saying nothing, letting him jump and do what he thinks is his lead- but stare at him, slightly leaning down OVER him. Now, he does one or two jumps, and gets it! He stops and immediately gives in, laying down, with that guilty doggy look. I say ok let's go...and he gets up...if he gets rowdy again, I stop in my tracks, and then, amazingly, so does he!  It takes time and remembering until it becomes habit for both of you. It also helps if everyone in the household is on the same page as you!!! Annoyed energy or words to that end just wind up the dog further, making for the opposite of what you want to achieve!


Edited by KittynDoc, 16 April 2017 - 06:54 AM.


#8 DarmokElizabethontheocean

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 10:51 AM

My first question is what are the qualification of these dog trainers?  Are they certified with any of the nationally accredited dog training schools?  Are they also a member of any of the nationally recognized dog trainer association that has their members sign a code of ethics? One such organization is https://apdt.com/.

 

I'm in the process of getting laws in Washington State about the Qualifications and Accountability of Service Dog trainers.  I'm about to have my first amendment signed by the Governor making it a crime to injure a service dog in training.

 

Using force/pain/injury to train a dog is the "old" way.  It is not done now by most respectable/responsible dog trainers that are actual professional dog trainers.

 

The dog training business is completely unregulated at the moment....I'm working on changing that.  Be very careful when choosing a trainer.  Training a dog with any sort of violence is simply unconscionable and does not have to be.  It is the choice of the trainer to do so....its slightly faster  to train a dog with fear and pain but is not worth it.  Find a force free dog trainer that is certified.  If you need any help please feel free to contact me.  If anyone says something similar to "I know people think I'm a meanie but that's just how you train dogs" RUN! OR "it doesn't really hurt them that much" RUN.

 

If you are training the dog on your own, research "force free" dog training.  There are millions of ways to train a dog.....doing so the force free way is best for me and mine and for what I'm working on for all the Service Dogs in Washington state.


Edited by DarmokElizabethontheocean, 17 April 2017 - 10:58 AM.


#9 Denise E.

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 01:47 PM

South Florida is having an over run of people who say they have a service dog "in-training" but the dog has not gotten through basic obedience and recently there was a local news report that showed how these leash untrained pets actually disrupted a blind man's service dog (people let their dogs run right up to other dogs and people calling it socialization).

 

   That could use an enforceable law down here!   :wub:

 

Pets are allowed many places in south Florida but they need to be "well-behaved".

I think that's great that many businesses in south Florida allow "well behaved" pets since it is so hot down here and many people need ESA's while out of the house even though ESA's not technically service dogs yet by ADA or IRS.

 

I think it's REALLY crappy that people are bringing pups & dogs out saying these are service dogs "in training" when they NOT well behaved on leash and the people are letting the animals pull and jump everywhere!



#10 DarmokElizabethontheocean

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 08:20 AM

Denise - I briefly took a look at the Florida State laws for Service Animals.  Your's is one of the few States that has a law about "fake" service animals. You could meet with your district representive and ask to have an admendment to that law extending it to also cover Service Dogs in Training.  We don't have that "fake service dog" law yet...but several of us are working on it...I'll ask to have service dogs in training included.  These fakers are hurting those that actually NEED service dogs.

 

An emotional support animal is something all together different.  That title is actually more about the person than the animal.  The person has assigned some degree of emotional connection to a particlaur animal (could be a spider, could be a parrot, could be a duck) and feels better with that animal near by and the person's therapist or other mental health provider has written a letter stating such.  The animal requires no training and has no access under the American's with Disablities Act.  Where as a disabled person's service dog must be trained to be in public AND do at least one task to mitigate it's handler's disability. 

 

When a service dog is not with it's handler, it is still a service dog.  When an emotional support animal is not with its person, its just a pet.  These untrained animals (parrot, cat, rooster, etc) cause issues when they encounter a service dog and that encounter can injure the disabled handler. 

 

Service dog's in training start going out in public very young, usually when they have had all of their shots to begin socialization. Socialization typically means learning all over their environment and where they will be going when their training is done, learning how to go up and down escalators, walking though a crowd without being distracted.....holy hell....not interfering or interacting with another service dog or guide dog (unless both handler's give permission)....love to have one of these folks approach me and Darmok.



#11 Denise E.

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 09:52 AM

Yes, a service dog is still a service dog when not with it's handler, and I have witnessed some service dogs given time just to be dogs. It all depends on the type of service needed.

  For example:  I met a guy at the swim park with a service dog for hearing.  The guy allowed his service dog "play time" at the swim park.

      Also, I know a Vet that has a PTSD service dog and he uses the service vest on & off to let the dog know (off at dog park) to let the dog be a dog and have play time.

 

I also know people with anxiety attacks and learning disabilities and them having their ESA's are very helpful for them in public.

  This is where that CGC or equivalent training needs to be in place (IMHO).  Would that dog be considered a PSA then? 

 

Some service dogs are started learning service as puppies, some as adults.

No matter what age, a service dog in training should never be scampering around, pulling on the leash and going up to other people or dogs.

 

Darmok Elizabeth - here's another gray area - maybe you can shed some light .....  :)

  Tayamni is a certified Therapy Dog and that means she's goes to specific places to help other people.

  Therapy dogs are not supposed to be Therapy dogs & service dogs (don't know if that's a law or my organization's rule)

 

However,  I and the people Tayamni is helping have noticed that she is not focused on them sometimes and I have realized it happens when I am 'fatigued' (for lack of better word).  I can't do Therapy work then.

Sometimes even when I feel fatigued I still have to run some errands.  Tayamni lets me know when I am too weak to continue.  (I have been told I keep writing checks my body can't cash .... lol!  Have to learn to pace myself better).

I can run errands on my own most of the time but when I HAVE to get something done and know I'm fading I take Tayamni with me so she can alert me when I'm done and have to go home even with more to do. (Once fatigue and brain fog set in I don't realize how bad I feel until it's way too late).

She alerts by nudging my leg and whining softly.  She will continue until we are headed home (in car, then she's a backseat driver - keeping watch on me instead of her normal enjoying the ride).

 

I don't know what category she falls into.  I didn't specifically train her for this.  She took her Therapy dog training and maybe her herding instinct? and is applying it to me doing a task / service for me.

She IS consistent about it.  I know there are many types of service dogs, some alert for epilepsy, some alert for allergies....  I don't know what she qualifies under but I am VERY grateful she does this for me and it helps me out ALOT!

 

 

 

 

 







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