Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Welcome to American Indian Dogs

Register or login now and gain instant access to our features!

Recommended Posts

Does anyone have an ai that bites? In 4 years, chester has bitten probably 5 or 6 times. I deal with what seems to have caused it (food aggression, fear, etc) but is the unpredictability of what will be the next cause for a bite reasonable? He has only bitten hands, but he breaks the skin and leaves bruises. What if he bites a face? I have spent an enormous amount of time with him. He listens to me and is well trained. He was never around dogs regularly until we got our ai puppy a year ago, but he has been around kids his whole life. He is a bit of a nervous nelly and barks a lot at the puppy when she is hyper. He doesnt do well at dog parks. Usually barks at the one crazy dog who then goes after him. M y husband is loosing payience with each bite. The kids usually hold a little blame, but is it fair to blame them? What do I do?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi SKD welcome back to the forum. Sorry it isn't under happier circumstances.

 

I suspect you have a complicated problem with a lot of dynamics. You are probably thinking Oh joy. It may not be that complicated to fix. In your very short paragraph there are very few clues but I can say that in my 6 years on the forum this particular topic hasn't come up, although I do recall an old case of a biter that ended well somewhere in the archives of the forum. The root cause was lack of proper leadership for the dog so that it knows it's place in the pecking order and what the rules are for everyone.

 

Also you clearly aren't describing the not so unusual puppy mouthiness and teething joys. In fact if we subtract off the first year of puppy teething I am thinking you are describing 3 years with a bite every 8 months or so. If this were resource guarding why is the frequency so low? Is the puppy also being bitten in a resource guardy way or in a correction way or at all? Who is being bitten - is it the same individual or team? Is it truly random, or does it just seem that way because Chester is mostly good most of the time? What are the circumstances? Could it be that the dog is trying to set it's own safe boundaries that get crossed too far about once in 8 months? Many things to consider. Is there anything going on with the health of the dog? Are you the only one engaged with the dog in a leadership position or are your kids walking the dog, giving it commands, food. How about your husband. Is he taking a leadership role? In one of your earlier posts you did say that Chester was a bit of a mama's boy even to the teasing of your children about who comes first. You don't have to back off loving him but you might need to make sure those love signals are coming from the right direction and giving the right impression to all.

 

You do mention the puppy and the dog park. Is it 6 bites in the year you have the puppy? That could easily be pack order or a sense of loss around it and jealousy. or 6 bites over Chester's life not including Chester's puppyhood? Because those are different root causes and answers. Also what is the significance of the dog park? If he doesn't do well there don't go.

 

I also recall you have a flock of kids. I don't know if you adopt or foster or both but there are probably some human dynamics in there around families with lots of kids. Anyone have ADD, autism or special needs? Are flocks of friends about? Is it clear to the dog he is below all the humans in pecking order and is it clear to the kids the dogs rights? For example if the dog doesn't want to be pet, don't chase it around an corner it or don't tease the dog and so on? Do the kids understand some of the basics of doggy language, like a tucked tail? ears down? (I'm scared or I don't like this) lip licking and yawning (your dog's way of saying calm down to you).

 

I suspect you have a mostly good dog and mostly good kids. My advice would be to engage an experienced dog behavioralist for an in person conversation where you can really deep dive into your specifics. Every problem has an answer and it's tel is in the details.

 

Do let us know more of the specifics but also do seek out a conversation that doesn't involve typing. I think you need that kind of level of deep dive. Also let us know how this progresses. Meanwhile here is the thread I mentioned at the beginning http://www.iidoba.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=2410&hl=bite You may also wish to PM Jackie via the Forum mail function to see if she has some advice for kids and dogs. PS My Waki went though a difficult period at 14 months. Your pup is now growing through the teen phase - there might be something in that dynamic influencing Chester.

Edited by Sherab
  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well said, Sherab. Didn't know how best to respond to skg, but also got a sense that Chester did not have a solid sense of where he belonged in the pack pecking order. Kaposia is almost two years old, and hasn't bitten (knock wood) but will still during active play occasionally "mouth" my hands...no-no...that gets corrected every time. Even though she is good around kids of all ages, there is always an adult to supervise so that she doesn't get the idea that the kids are her peers or subordinates...she definitely ranks below them, and yes, we have taught the grandkids commands and hand signals before they give a treat. Kaposia is not great with all other dogs, we've had successful play dates with another AI dog and a nice older lab mix, but she's also been attacked by a Husky, and a Fox Hound on two different occasions. I think she's happier as an "only child." Perhaps the new pup does play into the scenario too, rocking an already unsteady pecking order(?) Knowing Kaposia and one other AI dog, I also don't think the situation is hopeless. These dogs are intellegent and willing to please, but need a firm hand. skg, sending you the best in encouragement...keep us posted.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

skg,

 

I agree with sherab to seek a certified behaviorist (not just a trainer) and in person go over details and let that person see as well as hear the dynamics.

 

Even Coffey with his reactive excitedness has not bitten or tried to bite any other dog or person.

He does however have canine teeth that lean out so they brush sometimes during play.

 

He did learn a bit of growling around the food dish from my Mom's dog, bad habits pick up quick. We don't let the dogs guard their dishes (because of a problem with a previous dog that was not an AI dog). Hand feeding both dogs from his dish quieted that down.

 

Coffey hates being humped and will correct any dog trying to do this. He turns growls and air snaps right at the dogs cheek. He will do this for up to four or five steps after the dog. On the other hand, he is submissive and gives look aways and calming signals to dominant dogs that approach him face on. I am learning a lot from these dogs about dog language.

 

Sherab asks a lot of good questions.

After you get more information sorted it might be a good idea also to email Kim (after he is repaired from the flood).

 

Also, did Chester get neutered before he came of age or after? Was the first episode after neuter? Is all his lab work normal? (rule out a medical issue?). I would tend to think it is some type of behavior, people involved or maybe the new puppy - that's just a guess though.

 

Please update us, I'm sure this can have a happy ending!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's especially important to seek the input of people with dogs and kids under the same roof. I don't have experience in this area but LakeGirl, Greg, Chinatola and others have.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your input. The first 3 real bites were about stolen food. And started after age 3. Chester will wait to eat. Stop eating on command. Let me take food out of his mouth. He would not steal food in front of me but became a sneak. If caught in the act he would react like a wild dog. I brought in a professional and dealt with the stealing. No problems since. Then he started acting a bit unnerved again. Was going after food again as a sneak. No aggression, just seened nervous. My son, who has been warned that his up down energy makes chester afraid of him was playing with the puppy. Chester started barking (not unusual) son tried to give him a toy which is an old rule (he always gets something in his mouth to rough house, he will even do this with skye, go get some toy to play with her) he took toy then dropped it and bit. I am of the school that dogs will bite if scared and we do owe them the right to be left alone at times, but then you read that dogs as pets should never bite no matter what. I donr know if I should be super wirried or not. I was with the food aggression because he seemed crazy, but we cured that pretty quickly. I didnt see the last episode and details given dont give me any clue as to why except fear, not sure what he was afraid of. I have been keeping him with me at all times when he is in the house. He can run around outside at will, but inside he is with me, on leash or in kennel. I am making him walk in heel rather than off leash with me and keeping the puppy out of his face. Trying to give him more security. The bite came after I had already noticed some behavior that showed some fear. I should have reigned him in then. I am on my phone so forgive typos.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to hear about your troubles. In Holistic healing, fear means an imbalance in the kidneys, while anger is a liver imbalance....supplementing with proper herbs and food can help immensely! As we witness, dogs in the wild will always eat grass if they have a digestive issue, or tummy troubles. Many native herbs that grow in most of the US (goldenrod, mugwort, dandelion root, leaves and flowers etc.) are what would be natural for them to eat as they have a sense of how to correct whatever ails them. Since they are living in our world, with lots of commotion and noise, etc., we need to figure out how to help. I know that when people think dogs need discipline, sometimes it is really as simple as supplementing what they are missing. Research this further, and try it...you may just be surprised!

Hope this helps.. :)

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

SKG good update. I'd bring a professional back into the picture. Sounds like what works great for primates is very confusing for Chester. Even if he wasn't seeing your son as an equal he did see an opportunity to move up. Giving a primate something to suck on to calm is good. Giving a toy to Chester may well have been doggy for All hail Chester. Let me grovel and pay tribute. To which Chester is saying Let me emphasize the point and become alpha! How is this wrong? Why isn't my magnificence being honored? You got the food theft thing fixed. I am sure you will be able to fix this as well as head off any other communication break downs. Dogs that are confused about pecking order can be quite tense and fearful. PS. Dogs of sound temperament bite given the right circumstances. When your trainer was in I assume he/she evaluated Chester's temperament. Was it sound? I had a GSD that did suffer from a weak temperament and she did always have a toy in her mouth 24/7. Sometimes dogs and people are special. It happens. All the other dogs knew it and it was a very different interaction to make sure she had her sucking toy. We all watched out for her and the sucking toy (pooh bear) was sacred and not to be touched - even today her pooh is unmolested and holds a place of honor 2 years after her death. All other stuffed toys last hours to days. My other 3 dogs were sound and they play little games with toys and food constantly that re-emphasize pack order. Just this morning Cake was playing with a hoof. Waki came up and took it away with a loud snarl. She then groveled for a few minutes and he gave it back to her. She's happy because it's confirmation that he will defend the house if the UPS comes and he is happy because she won't magically transform into an alpha dog and take his pack place. My shepherd in his old age with his crippled back legs use to make a purposeful mess eating crackers so that the little dogs would come grovel and he could either eat his crumbs in front of his groveling audience or be magnanimous and allow them to eat the crumbs.

 

PPS just to make clear. I am 100% confident that Kim evaluates pups and never sends anyone an unsound one but I do allow for the possibility that during the dogs life things can happen. For example Cake had a concussion. Head injuries and illnesses can have unfortunate effects. Health issues and undetected pain can cause strange behavior. Probably it's the most common thing - mixed signals but sometimes (rarely) figuring out what is wrong takes more digging. Things starting at the age of 3 is interesting. Later than I would have expected for typical teen dog problems.

Edited by Sherab
  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, skg, what you describe is way beyond my scope of experience. These behaviors after age three...you wonder if there was some precipitating event, or as KittynDoc suggested, some sort of metabolic imbalance. Sounds like you've done everything possible short of bringing in the experts (holistic vet/behavioral specialist again.) Keep us posted.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

My only experience I can add is that my sister had a fear aggression doxie-terrier. She coddled/babied him as a pup and picked him up a lot and he and his littermate (which is Mom's dog) followed her around like baby chicks follow a mother hen.

It was really cute until around 8 - 10 months he started resource guarding, food then toys. At a couple years old her bit and ATT repair technician as the guy was working on the equipment. Luckily he didn't puncture the guys leg fully.

 

Kelli lived with our Mom at the time and I only found out all the dog's issues (although I knew he challenged me for the daybed whenever I came up for a visit - I made sure I could sit on the bed but he was always "on guard") when he was 3 years old.

 

as Roger was a rescue puppy, we were able to have the rescue evaluate him before getting a trainer. They found that Roger showed no issues around people while in a pack of dogs, where he understood his role and he was happy, but definitely showed the resource guarding when he was the only dog. (or at home where he was over Ginger his littermate).

 

We paid for a positive trainer who referred us to an aggression trainer. He assessed Roger and found he was a good dog and had fear aggression. It stemmed from Roger not knowing his place in the pack and his personality was of a beta and Kelli and Mom had been unknowingly giving him signals and openings for him to have alpha role. Part of it was the puppy bonding Kelli did without the household (pack member people) reinforcing his place in the pack and leaving higher positions open, which as he was going from puppy to teenager he then attempted to fill but couldn't because he is not wired to be an alpha personality so it caused confusion and then the fear aggression in him.

 

We worked with Roger daily for consistency and had to reinforce our roles as alpha by coming in doors first, not letting him walk on leash ahead of us, etc. hand fed him out of dish, (trust building), etc. We worked with him in this way for the rest of his life. He actually got to enjoy life for a few years before he got sick. He went to the dog park and was friendly with everyone - even men. Also, he accepted my AI pup Tayamni when she arrived and they had a great relationship (Tayamni got bigger than him fast - even before that he accepted that the puppy was equal with him in our pack).

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Is he neutered? You haven't said.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 months later...
Does anyone have an ai that bites? In 4 years, chester has bitten probably 5 or 6 times. I deal with what seems to have caused it (food aggression, fear, etc) but is the unpredictability of what will be the next cause for a bite reasonable? He has only bitten hands, but he breaks the skin and leaves bruises. What if he bites a face? I have spent an enormous amount of time with him. He listens to me and is well trained. He was never around dogs regularly until we got our ai puppy a year ago, but he has been around kids his whole life. He is a bit of a nervous nelly and barks a lot at the puppy when she is hyper. He doesnt do well at dog parks. Usually barks at the one crazy dog who then goes after him. M y husband is loosing payience with each bite. The kids usually hold a little blame, but is it fair to blame them? What do I do?

 

Our dog Zuni has bitten . He also growls at us I have never had a dog that is randomly aggressive. As i said in another post he was on Trifexis and I am wondering if this made him feel weird and caused it, i am still hoping as it works its way out of his body this behavior will go away. He is a little resource guard-y around bones with my adult kids who don't live here but stop by a lot. But this past week he has growled at me twice always at night and usually if you move in the room while he is on his bed. He almost always grumbles about going into his crate at night. On the other hand he is great at the dog park, friendly with strangers seems to like kids etc. I guess thats what is so puzzling why does he growl at me??? And then next morning tuck in behind me on the sofa . I keep him on a drag line in the house a lot so I can make him come stop chasing the cat etc. I am really hoping this is part of the brat phase he turns 1 on Saturday but last night he had me in tears- sometimes i just don't get him....and yes he is neutered .

Link to post
Share on other sites


Wow Norcal that is hard. Sorry to hear it got to you like that. :(

 

I only have two AI Dogs and Tayamni is over 2.5 years and Coffey is coming up on 2 years in June.

 

Tayamni is an independent thinker but wouldn't even bite a squirrel (so far anyway). Her personality is more submissive but like I said she can be very independent, just never any form of aggression.

The only times I've seen upset and stick up for herself is when any dog tried to mount her as she gets scratched on her belly and she will let another dog know.

During play there is a lot of teeth gnashing between her and Coffey and they get close to us sometimes and I wonder how I haven't caught a tooth and am happy that hasn't happened.

I don't know why play has to be right next to people.

 

Then there's Coffey. He has never bitten us or anyone else. He does make a lot of terrible noises (and he chases the cat more now that we are curbing him from other reactiveness).

He will take bones and toys away from Tayamni and she lets him. When he was a pup he growled at her a couple times and I took the offending object away (I think a cow esophagus) and we haven't had that back in the house again.

 

He guarded his food a few times and we handled that. Yes, he still gets food - I didn't take that away from him - just made sure that if he was going to stick his nose in Tayamni's dish that she could stick her nose in his.

He loves to lave food in his dish or not eat and wait for a cat to start walking up and then he runs, makes a gruff and starts eating.

 

When I have to take a goathead weed pricker out of his foot - he used to air snap at me but he never bit me. In fact when I surprise him (a raspberry on his side or back when he's resting will do it) he does the air snaps but he doesn't bite. OK maybe it wasn't the best test to make sure I read his air snaps correctly...... he also air snaps and urrrs when he is getting a rubdown that he likes.

We have learned that he is quick to grr and grumble but it doesn't mean he is going to bite - or maybe because whenever he did growl inappropriately as a puppy we were able to disengage him and redirect????

His bottom teeth are slanted out a little and while he is playing we've gotten a scratch or two but he wasn't biting. Also when he is playing he loves doing the air snaps with his teeth and we have always made sure he was comfortable with our hands in his mouth and as he grew I was somehow able to teach him when to be gentle with his grabbing (especially during tug and he wants a better rope position). Treats have to be taken gently ... etc. so wen he is on his back and wiggling and air snapping happily - (not the warning air snap) the look very much the same but different energy from Coffey .... I will put my hand near then in his mouth on a regular basis so he doesn't forget to be gentle. I don't want to get out of the habit of this so it stays fresh with him.

 

He growls a lot and we originally thought he was being mean or about to bite but it turns out that he makes those noises on a regular basis so it is our reaction that is VERY important.

I guess that's just his voice? It even freaked my adopted older brother out!

 

I don't know if looking back maybe Zuni has the same type of voice and what your reaction was when he started his growly voice?

It is startling and I don't know if Zuni is escalating depending on how people react.

Just giving what we experience with Coffey.

 

OK, so now everyone knows Coffey is a funny oddball and have gone to extremes to give him a soft mouth around people.

(I'm pretty sure he knows it's OK to protect us if needed .... although he will bark from the bedrooms if he hear's a noise at night and I have to get up and check it out if I want to. Then he will follow).

 

 

PS Coffey also likes to walk around with his ears flattened to his head but this is not a sign of aggression in him, it's either to keep dust, water or loud noise out of his ears.

Also when playing with other dogs, even Tayamni. I think that's actually pretty smart even though it may look suspicious.

 

 

Oh, when Coffey was still being crated, we always made it a game and happily yelled "crate, crate" so the dogs went running down to the bedroom where the crate was and sat in the crate and got a treat. When Coffey was testing the crate at times I gave a longer lasting treat so Coffey was busy and I could shut the crate door and lock it and he was too busy to grumble. He didn't grumble much and I don't know if it was really aggression or just the start of the sounds he makes. Anyway, that's how I headed it off. I'm sure other people have experiences they can relate. Hopefully somebody's will resonate.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Our dog Zuni has bitten . He also growls at us I have never had a dog that is randomly aggressive. As i said in another post he was on Trifexis and I am wondering if this made him feel weird and caused it, i am still hoping as it works its way out of his body this behavior will go away. He is a little resource guard-y around bones with my adult kids who don't live here but stop by a lot. But this past week he has growled at me twice always at night and usually if you move in the room while he is on his bed. He almost always grumbles about going into his crate at night. On the other hand he is great at the dog park, friendly with strangers seems to like kids etc. I guess thats what is so puzzling why does he growl at me??? And then next morning tuck in behind me on the sofa . I keep him on a drag line in the house a lot so I can make him come stop chasing the cat etc. I am really hoping this is part of the brat phase he turns 1 on Saturday but last night he had me in tears- sometimes i just don't get him....and yes he is neutered .

 

Oh, NorCal, I am so sorry to hear....it is so hard, especially when you know you give them all the love, and good things...I hear you on keeping them from running after cars- i have that problem now, and even though you would think he exhausts himself doing it on a car ride at EVERY car that rides by, it is not enough, because that energy of being" stuck", so to speak in one spot and not running makes him NUTS.. You want to keep them safe. They think (like teenagers do) that we are keeping them from doing what they want, and get angry. I notice that if it is bad weather, a busy day, or any of the things that will keep you from taking them out on a good run somewhere, that the pulling on the leash, biting it, and growling and baring teeth (I almost got bit a few days ago) or anything else that seems unusual, is due to not getting the proper exercise! On the days when we can take him on a good hour run, a nice hike where he runs and explores everything (off leash), he is really good, listens, is calm and eager to please or get hugs. I don't know when Zuni was neutered, but I was reading somewhere that if you want their personalities to stay like their puppy self, then neuter them earlier...otherwise, do it at a year of age, and their behavior will be a bit on the "older" side..

 

Maybe it is the meds, and it is working its way out of his system; but they can't "speak" the way we do, so, perhaps that is it. Wyot has a "crazy" zoomie run in the house when all of a sudden, all bets are off, and even after a small walk (not a full out off leash walk), he is nuts, running out the energy he can't when on leash on a walk, growling at me, jumping up, teeth bared. First time this happened, I got scared, and a little angry, which made things worse. Now, if that happens, I understand, and I have no emotion, just calm, and put my knee up to protect (knee ends up in the chest, so they can't bite), and wait out the zooming around, just kneeing every time he happens to come towards me. A few times of the knee and no reaction, he suddenly submits on his own, and lays down in front of me, with the sorriest look ever. Then it's back to his sweet, wonderful AI dog self.

 

I don't know if this helps, but I figured I'd share. :)

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

As previously mentioned, hopefully the Trifexis will soon clear out of Zuni's system and he will return to normal.

 

My intention here is to educate and not insinuate. When I run into a brick wall, I like to look at some of my old books and notes to see what I am missing. Often times I find the answer is something simple. I often review my Cesar Millan and the Monks Of New Skete books to help.

 

The good thing is that aggression is not a common trait in the AIDog. For behavior like nipping and/or biting, as Kim would say, you need to "Nip it in the bud" or correct it immediately. Let's take a look at some of the issues which could cause this unacceptable behavior.

 

Some of the things which should be considered is: living conditions, lack of socialization, excessive punishment, being attacked or frightened by an aggressive dog, being spoiled or given too much unwarranted praise by owners, being isolated from human contact or being exposed to frequent teasing by children and I could probably come up with some more but I hope you get the idea.

 

Dogs have a pack order that determines their social ranking. This pack order is established and maintained by body language. Some dogs will take on the alpha (dominant) status, and some will take on low ranking status. Dogs living with people, will look at humans as members of the pack and will try to establish their place in the pack by challenging the more submissive family members, particularly the children. If a dog displays a dominant gesture such as growling while guarding the food dish, and they are not corrected for this behavior, they have established a bit of dominance to build on with any or all family members. If these dominant gestures remain uncorrected, the dog will slowly but surely gain in status over one or all family members.

 

Subtle signs of dominance will usually go unnoticed, or simply dismissed, until the dog bites a family member (or any human) for interfering with his alpha position.

 

Food rewards (in moderation) will help train young puppies, but as dogs get older, they must receive praise for good behavior and discipline for bad behavior. Dogs should earn everything they receive from their owners. They should sit to receive petting or treats, sit before going out the door, sit before getting out of the car, sit to have the leash attached to the collar. These exercises constantly reinforce the notion that the owner is boss.

 

Dogs should not receive excessive praise (or constant petting), especially for doing nothing. Excessive praise and petting elevates the dog's social status and sends mixed signals.

 

Finally, prevention of aggression requires that the owner win each and every confrontation with the dog. If the dog wins a showdown by growling when you try to get him off the sofa or take his toy or approach his food bowl, he receives a green light for the next step in his attempted takeover.

 

List all the things that trigger aggressive behavior and prevent these situations from developing. As an example, if the dog growls when you try to remove it from the couch, don't allow it to get on the couch.

 

Unlike humans, dogs will not follow unstable energy. They instinctually seek and follow pack leaders who exhibit calm and assertive energy. When dogs live with a human who does not fill this role, they will attempt to correct the pack balance by filling what they see as a vacant pack leader role. This is how behavior problems develop. -- Cesar Millan

Edited by Greg
  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites

Greg, thank you for the wonderful reminders!!!! I too go to reading/researching to see what I am missing when something unusual happens in Wyot's behavior-and I know that it is something I'm not seeing, that I should be doing..... Thank goodness I have no issues with feeding, and I can pet him, reach and add something to his bowl while he is eating. No growling there, because he knows I am the hand that feeds him, and he won't get food unless he sits first. When I give him raw food with bone in, I take him outside to eat, because though no one approaches him while he eats, his instinct is to protect this "wild" food, and the first time I gave him a chicken wing, anytime I came near (to wash a dish in the sink, for eg.), he would RUN with the chicken and settle on a rug!!! I took control of the situation; now he knows when he gets that kind of food, he immediately goes for the door, and knows to sit outside before getting the dish. This way, he feels no need to protect, and he eats in one place, with no worries on both sides.

 

Wyot also does not have toys laying around all over. When it's time to play, I get the ball, tug toy, whatever, and he knows it's playtime! One day, he found a toy that was laying around, that I forgot to put away (just like when my kids were little, I gather up all the toys from the floor and put it in a box only I can reach). Well, clearly, he had control of the situation. That's when the unruly behavior starts...his time out is me not saying a word, just leading him into the small, empty bathroom (nothing in it so there's nothing for him to "play" with). Five minutes is good enough (long enough for the whining to settle down). Usually one time out gets the desired outcome. Sometimes it takes two, but that is rare. Lately, because his territory got bigger (he is now allowed in the living room, so the whole downstairs is fine for him to be in), a time out is being escorted to the kitchen without a word and a calm demeanor and having the gate put up. It works like a charm. He knows I am in charge then, not him.

 

"Unlike humans, dogs will not follow unstable energy. They instinctually seek and follow pack leaders who exhibit calm and assertive energy. When dogs live with a human who does not fill this role, they will attempt to correct the pack balance by filling what they see as a vacant pack leader role. This is how behavior problems develop. -- Cesar Millan"

What a great quote!!! I will have this burned into my brain!

 

My challenge right now, is his chasing cars while in the car. I now tether him safely, otherwise, he'd collide with the driver (me or hubby), fall in between the seats to the floor, or continuously bang his head into the window...!!! Now I cannot let him loose in the yard, because he will gravitate towards the road, where the cars are. Even on the porch, he runs to the railing to "get" the cars. So, his off leash adventures are only when both of us are home, up in the field, where he can't see the cars or really hear them (we usually take him once a day, sometimes twice for a long run), or he has a dog or two as a play date (dog parks don't exist in the country really).....

 

He is in his teenage period now, testing the boundaries, wanting to do his own thing, etc...back to researching and reading, always trying to reinforce and keep me strong, while remembering and doing it, lol!

 

PS- I don't know how you all deal with the issue of well meaning people saying "aw, it's okay, I don't mind his jumping up on me", and then petting him at the same time...I very politely but firmly tell people that he needs to sit, and THEN they can pet him. Otherwise, he's in control- but, AI dogs are smarter than the average, and they pick up on people's energy, and keep trying to jump (I am strong, but....!!!!) Sheesh, people really don't respect the owner's wishes usually (only other dog owners do), and I've caught people sneaking popcorn to Wyot after I asked them not to feed him please (in public)... what is it, are they are suckered into feeling "sorry" for the pup, as if we punish them? I don't get it. I always did whatever anybody asked- it's their dog!...

Edited by KittynDoc
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

We have found that sometimes a change in teaching methods is needed. As an example, we no longer use the Monk's tethering technique on the rare occasion that Kaposia is rowdy and defiant at bed time, it no longer works and only serves to elevate her state of excitement. Now we simply take her downstairs and blockade the base of the stairway for the night. She loses access to us and our bedroom. In the morning we have a very calm, almost apologetic dog. At two years old, Kaposia is maturing out quite nicely. No jumping up to greet (most of the time) now she rolls around near people's feet in excitement, not perfect, but better than jumping, we're working on it. Kim described her as a medium level energy dog (sometimes we wonder what would qualify as high energy!?) When she was a pup we took her food dish away as she was eating at least twice each day, and made her sit to get it back, all the while running our hands through the food to put our scent on it. To this day, she has to lie down and look me in the eyes before I fill her food dish. She sits in all the situatons Greg mentioned above, nothing happens or goes forward until she does. The Grandkids are not with us that often, but Kaposia knows their place in the pack. We worked with them making her sit and lie down with and without treats, verbal and hand signals. They are taught the difference between playing with the dog and teasing the dog, and that dogs do not necessarily think like we do. We still have an adult watching the action at all times. Remember, ANY dog WILL bite given the right conditions. So far we have been fortunate.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

We have found that sometimes a change in teaching methods is needed. As an example, we no longer use the Monk's tethering technique on the rare occasion that Kaposia is rowdy and defiant at bed time, it no longer works and only serves to elevate her state of excitement. Now we simply take her downstairs and blockade the base of the stairway for the night. She loses access to us and our bedroom. In the morning we have a very calm, almost apologetic dog. At two years old, Kaposia is maturing out quite nicely. No jumping up to greet (most of the time) now she rolls around near people's feet in excitement, not perfect, but better than jumping, we're working on it. Kim described her as a medium level energy dog (sometimes we wonder what would qualify as high energy!?) When she was a pup we took her food dish away as she was eating at least twice each day, and made her sit to get it back, all the while running our hands through the food to put our scent on it. To this day, she has to lie down and look me in the eyes before I fill her food dish. She sits in all the situatons Greg mentioned above, nothing happens or goes forward until she does. The Grandkids are not with us that often, but Kaposia knows their place in the pack. We worked with them making her sit and lie down with and without treats, verbal and hand signals. They are taught the difference between playing with the dog and teasing the dog, and that dogs do not necessarily think like we do. We still have an adult watching the action at all times. Remember, ANY dog WILL bite given the right conditions. So far we have been fortunate.

Yes, absolutely true!!! When I've changed something that didn't seem to be working, the new technique works like a charm!

 

Hubby bustles around before leaving for work (can't find keys, where is my briefcase, etc the usual stuff.), and Wyot picks up on it. He goes insanely nuts, and as that Cesar Milan quote says, he is trying to "balance" out and take over. I now see that I will need to gate him off as the prep for work happens (about 10-15 mins). I may try a treat in his crate while he gets ready to leave, so that I don't hear "Wyot, not now", Wyot DOWN, away" "STOP" , and all Wyot wants to do is calm him down, so he follows him, jumps, nips and then it escalates to growling and running like a maniac, like when he doesn't get adequate exercise...I understand and see this more clearly now. :) .

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
We have found that sometimes a change in teaching methods is needed. As an example, we no longer use the Monk's tethering technique on the rare occasion that Kaposia is rowdy and defiant at bed time, it no longer works and only serves to elevate her state of excitement. Now we simply take her downstairs and blockade the base of the stairway for the night. She loses access to us and our bedroom. In the morning we have a very calm, almost apologetic dog. At two years old, Kaposia is maturing out quite nicely. No jumping up to greet (most of the time) now she rolls around near people's feet in excitement, not perfect, but better than jumping, we're working on it. Kim described her as a medium level energy dog (sometimes we wonder what would qualify as high energy!?) When she was a pup we took her food dish away as she was eating at least twice each day, and made her sit to get it back, all the while running our hands through the food to put our scent on it. To this day, she has to lie down and look me in the eyes before I fill her food dish. She sits in all the situatons Greg mentioned above, nothing happens or goes forward until she does. The Grandkids are not with us that often, but Kaposia knows their place in the pack. We worked with them making her sit and lie down with and without treats, verbal and hand signals. They are taught the difference between playing with the dog and teasing the dog, and that dogs do not necessarily think like we do. We still have an adult watching the action at all times. Remember, ANY dog WILL bite given the right conditions. So far we have been fortunate.
Yes, absolutely true!!! When I've changed something that didn't seem to be working, the new technique works like a charm! Hubby bustles around before leaving for work (can't find keys, where is my briefcase, etc the usual stuff.), and Wyot picks up on it. He goes insanely nuts, and as that Cesar Milan quote says, he is trying to "balance" out and take over. I now see that I will need to gate him off as the prep for work happens (about 10-15 mins). I may try a treat in his crate while he gets ready to leave, so that I don't hear "Wyot, not now", Wyot DOWN, away" "STOP" , and all Wyot wants to do is calm him down, so he follows him, jumps, nips and then it escalates to growling and running like a maniac, like when he doesn't get adequate exercise...I understand and see this more clearly now. :) .

 

 

I have changed and learned new techniques for training also - with both dogs growing up. I believe the consistency is that we find out what works and doesn't work and keep being persistent in the tough love and like Greg said that Kim advises "Nip it in the Bud".

 

The hands in the alligator mouth thing. I want to clarify it is not before establishing pack order. I do it as a reminder for him, kind of like exercising.

Tayamni was easy to teach a soft mouth and instinctively had one. Coffey was little terror with teeth as pup and we worked immediately with redirect (ouch and turn away) and putting our fingers in his mouth and on his tongue and gums (when he was still). He would still nip while playing and we made sure he knew that was unacceptable (ouch and turn away & alpha roll when needed). I am glad I spend time sticking my hand in his mouth and he being gentle now when he feels the skin/flesh and stops.

 

My sister, Kelli has Lymphodema and gets cellulitis easy to even an inadvertent nip while dogs are playing and bump us could cause problems for her - which means trip to ER and sometimes Inpatient Hospital for her cellulitis flares.

Just this morning the dogs were playing and grabbing each other and then I felt a little pressure and had a wet spot on my PJ's - Coffey had missed Tayamni and caught my leg instead but didn't grab on because he realized it was me.

This of course was not aggression but it was/is boundry training and I am glad we worked with him on this beginning as a puppy.

(If I ever adopted a retired breeder, I'm sure the training method would be different! as it seems it is for every dog/puppy - the tough love techniques adjusted)

 

Thanks Greg for the posting. Your input is always great food for thought.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you thank you all!

I have ordered 2 more Cesar books (the first I had Cesars way-i did not find very helpful) I think we just relaxed some rules too soon. He is sooo good most of the time that his coup attempt was a bit of a shock to both of us. I know I was surprised! So I am sure I had a hurt and weak reaction...I froze...are you growling at me?? This will change.... deep breath... drag line back on... earns everything etc. I read one trainer who reminded me your dog is always watching , always keeping score of the points that go in his favor. He is very observant and sensitive. It was also helpful to know that at 1 year I am not out of the woods yet and I may have to wait a year or so for a cuddle ; ( I know he is very vocal and not all his growls are aggression . I read Turgid Rugrass and am trying calming signals too. I so appreciate all your input. ...... The following bit was extremely helpful Greg:

 

"Dogs should not receive excessive praise (or constant petting), especially for doing nothing. Excessive praise and petting elevates the dog's social status and sends mixed signals. Finally, prevention of aggression requires that the owner win each and every confrontation with the dog. If the dog wins a showdown by growling when you try to get him off the sofa or take his toy or approach his food bowl, he receives a green light for the next step in his attempted takeover. List all the things that trigger aggressive behavior and prevent these situations from developing. As an example, if the dog growls when you try to remove it from the couch, don't allow it to get on the couch. "

 

With much gratitude

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear members,

 

I am locking this thread for a short while (a couple weeks) because I think there is a lot of meat here, which would be good to take some time to digest and learn from. Many good things have been said.

 

I especially applaud NorCal for showing us what it looks like to take advice well and gracefully.

 

We all want what is best for our dogs, and to be the best owners we can be. NorCal's situation has caused me to reflect on ways I can do better with my dogs.

 

This is why we have the forum.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...