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#1 wag65

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 04:15 AM

Just putting this question out ..... are there any known hip or leg issues that these pups ay be born with? Our boy seems to have some problems. Just wanted to check with you all? Any feedback is welcomed!

Sarah

#2 Starghoti

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 04:48 AM

Could it just be growing pains? I know pups, up to about 1-1.5 yrs can have 'ows'. Have you gone to a vet? Had x-rays? Other diagnostics?
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#3 Sherab

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:47 PM

Gib has a thread on knee issues with Wicca. You may wish to read that.

 

Waki had a hind leg he routinely would lift funny at least once per walk when he was a pup but I haven't seen him do that in so long I can't even remember which leg it was.

 

Cake is a baby. She's not quite 8 months. She and Waki go at it so hard when they play that I figure any congenital or developmental weakness would have manifest by now.



#4 Gib

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 05:10 AM

Just putting this question out ..... are there any known hip or leg issues that these pups ay be born with? Our boy seems to have some problems. Just wanted to check with you all? Any feedback is welcomed!

Sarah

 

Starghoti & all...

 

http://www.iidoba.or...howtopic=2547 

 

Wicca had OCD (OsteoChondritis Dissec​ans). There is no scientific agreement as to the source/origin of the disease. It might be genetic. It might be nutritional. A few references said perhaps environmental.

 

This is a shoulder (front leg) deal.  If you read the thread, "Kim and his vet say that no AI Dog has ever been diagnosed with OCD. There have been dogs that showed puppy lameness but all have outgrown it.


Wicca was spay on October 14th. We kept her extremely quiet for 2-3 days and kept her low-key for a few more days. Since then she's been pretty normal. Including a couple of Sunday's when she not only survived two vigorous play dates but expressed none of her former symptoms. 

Kim and his vet suggest waiting until absolutely necessary. That being said, Kim agreed that if it is truly OCD, then we have no choice but to operate.
"  

 

And, "We had given him a summary but few details and he questioned us, to make sure we weren't jumping in to surgery too quickly. New puppy owners can be a bit too "motherly". (Guilty as charged.)


But, after filling Kim in on all the details of nearly two months of working with this he said he understands. He and his vet said it is the first case they know of in the AI Dogs. There have been other "growing pains" dis-eases; but all have grown out of it. 



They also said, that the point we are at, having confirmed now with 7 count 'em seven Vets, that we should do it. "

 

At the time, Kim & vet said there were a few various "growing pains" issues but that there is no known genetic defects in the AI dog.  That being said, Wicca had what is called a genetic disease.

 

The problem is that it could have also been brought about by the nutritional and/or environmental factors.  

 

To ramp up our guilt factor, there was lots of anecdotal evidence suggesting for very young pups that  too protein rich food with too much vigorous exercise (jumping up and down off of high things) could cause OCD type symptoms.

 

Wicca also has had both knees dislocated.  One knee was operated on and one knee has been doing good (after popping out once).  

 

Again, is it a genetic thing?  For this one dog, she seems to have had a lot wrong with her legs -- makes it sound genetic.  But, for both her shoulders and her knees, there is the possibility that we "allowed" her to have TOO MUCH rich food and overly-vigorous activities and helped precipitate the issues.  

 

I'm "afraid" (so to say) to even think about how many weeks we had Wicca on complete physical restriction.  At least 12 weeks (two different 6 weeks periods) of leash walks for potty only -- otherwise, essentially, no exercise.  (​And then, there was all the months of restrictions after her surgeries....​)

 

Hopefully, Wicca's issues will be the worst ever and no one will ever have to go through that again.  None of these dogs deserve this.  

 

While it's been months since we've had any issues, I can tell you we are haunted by the look in Wicca's eyes when she is trying to figure out why just playing can hurt so bad.  "What did I do wrong?"

 

Best Wishes, Star.  



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#5 Chinatola

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 05:51 AM

On Lili's most recent check up the new vet discovered a luxating patella (slippery kneecap) in her left rear leg.  She's only had a couple of incidents where it popped out and she was able to go back to normal routines almost immediately but we keep a close eye.  Vet recommends, if it gets bad and pops all the time, that maybe surgery would be in order.  I'm trying to avoid that like the plague.

 

So far so good....


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#6 aidogs

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:50 AM

Our dog, Coyo, is nearing 14 and only now is he starting to show any appreciable age. His sight and hearing aren't quite what they used to be but he still smells as bad as ever.


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#7 Allison

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 12:22 PM

Be sure to let them grow into their joints.  You are not supposed to over jump a pup.  Keep them on the ground for about the first 3-6 months.  

 

aidogs, you are awful.


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#8 Denise E.

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 03:58 AM

Thanks Allison for the advice. It is very valuable to us on the waiting list for our first AI Dog companions.

 

I have heard that these puppies develop a little faster than many other breeds.  If that is true physically, then I would liken it to a human doing weight training.  Tendons strengthen slower than muscles and it is very easy to have tendon injuries (owies) when starting out.

 

I'm not speaking toward any medical condition - just the advice to try and introduce jumping activities after other activity training.  (that's what I got from it).  ;)



#9 wag65

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 05:13 AM

Well, I appreciate all the input! It is with a very heavy heart that I report a diagnosis of Hip Dysplasia!!! Our Chocolate boy is only 8 months old, and our vet has confirmed with x-rays. VERY SHOCKING to see in our puppy. Vet says it is probably genetic. He is 32lbs. as of yesterday and has always asked for help getting in the car, on the couch, or on the bed.

We assumed it was because he was young and possibly that his muscles weren't fully developed....and that his "yelping" during play with our husky, was just that the big dog was playing too rough? I Guess NOT!!

I am contacting a vet that specializes in manipulation and acupuncture, with the hope that with his supplements and doggy advil we can hold off on surgery. He isn't able to have the surgery anyway until he has stopped growing, so we need to keep him comfortable until then if it becomes necessary. 

I am wondering if any of his siblings of (Little Bear X Rowdy) have any issues??? 

I will keep you posted...

Sarah

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#10 Allison

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:03 AM

Look into swimming therapy, too. I know owners of other breeds that have had excellent success with that.

 

I am happy to be able to say that it is very rare in our AIDogs.  

 

Good luck.

 

Also, please write to Kim and let him know.  This is the sort of thing that he would follow closely.  You help all of us, and the dogs, too, by keeping Kim informed.  He may have some advice for you, that we are not yet aware of. Be sure to add the cross.


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#11 wag65

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:24 PM

Spoke with Kim today.....it is rare, but possibly another dog from the same litter has an issue too.

We are very hopeful that when the water is a bit warmer here that it will help for him to get in and swim. 

We will keep you updated.



#12 Allison

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:45 PM

Note that Kim's vet says this may not be the right instance for swim therapy, after all.

 

Spud – for the forum -

 

I wish Sarah had told me originally, as soon as she found this out; (maybe they just found out?). We do have another from the same litter that has a slight hip problem as well, that I thought was just a fluke or some kind of injury when young. Now having 2 in one litter really brings up a red flag!! I have 2 of Rowdy’s pups that I have saved for breeding & although still young, “so far” no signs of leg problems … knock on wood.

 

I actually just bred Little Bear, luckily I had already heard from an owner & purposely did not breed her to Rowdy again. We haven’t found any leg problems with Rowdy’s pups (from other females yet?) or any past relatives. This being Little Bears 2nd litter … it’s hard to tell yet what parent or just the combination  of those 2 …  of where  it’s coming from?

 

I’m just so glad I knew before making the same breeding again & why it’s so important that owners contact me with any suspected health problems.

 

In the past there have been miss-diagnosed leg problems, because the AI dogs, first mature very fast & almost too fast for those growing bones & joints & then they slow way down … you can’t over do the exercise  during these growth changes & the fact that they are loose or double jointed causes some vets to think there is a loose joint problem (that usually indicates dysplasia in other breeds) & they end up out growing it or an injury when young. But seeing this in 2 pups so far in one litter is for sure, a red flag & something to watch … hopefully they will outgrow it, as in the past, but we don’t know yet & best not to make the same breeding combination, tell we know for sure.

 

Although it seems both of these owners have older very active adult dogs & may have had injury’s from over done play? This is a very good example why it’s so important to let me know as soon as possible, as unlike other breeds, we can do something about it before it’s too late, for the future of the breed & owners – thanks, this is “for sure” something to research & watch  -    

 

PS – just talked to my vet., he says swimming wouldn’t be good. That is more for dogs that have had the surgery & for rehab … not before … He also says that hip dysplasia is when the hip is out of the socket, not just loose or to one side or the other, as it appears in the pix???  So we need to do more research on how much exercise they can have at this point & if this is indeed hip dysplasia? This is something new in our breed, so we need more info. -

 

Kim La Flamme ~ founder/trustee of the AIDog breed for over 45 years -- www.indiandogs.com


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#13 Sherab

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:50 PM

Sarah,

 

I'm sure this was a shock and while it's natural to experience some grief over the things Cola will be less able to do, know that he can have a full and happy life with this condition.

 

I've had 5 German Shepherds and one of the 5 - Miss Tara - had bad hips and elbows from very early on. She didn't jump either, bunny hopped (both hind legs act as one - no cantering or independent motion) and in pictures of her you would see that she generally found a place to lay in the middle of the action and squeaked her toy. That was participation.

 

Fortunately AIDs are lighter framed so there are many benefits to that.

 

Here are some of the best links I've seen on the subject of hip dysplasia.

 

I can also say that Bionic Tara was much happier, more participatory and stable than pre-surgery Tara. Her surgery was a steel knee at age 5. The knee opposite the worst hip joint takes most of the stress and can eventually give out. If we had known we would have done the hip joint while she was still a pup (see part 2 below).

 

Cold laser therapy worked miracles on her late in life and might be an excellent treatment for Cola at the present moment.

 

Keep Cola's weight down, skinny dog = less joint stress. Note that one article recommends restricted, metered feeding between 3 and 10 months vs over feeding and free grazing. Miss Tara was never fat, in fact she grew so slow that at 1 year she could slip through the wood railing on the stairs - we use to call her the "2 dimensional dog". We fed a home made diet (metered twice a day) but still developed the problem so it goes...You can do what you can and sometimes stuff happens anyway.

 

http://www.animalmed...ysplasia-part-1

 

http://www.animalmed...ysplasia-part-2

 

http://www.animalmed...ysplasia-part-3

 

http://healthypets.m...n-pet-dogs.aspx



#14 oocahtah

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 03:58 PM

i had 2 gsd's that both ended up with chp but by the time they showed the majority of systems surgery was not a good option due to there age  both 9 and also my male started showing signs of prostate problems so we decide for there sake to have them put down so there was no more suffering 



#15 wag65

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 07:17 AM

I have sent the x-ray to Kim so he can take a look and share with his own Vet or just to keep on file.

We are fine about it, just a little shocked....Eds first very own pup of his own and was hoping for a running companion. So he is mourning that a little, BUT...we wouldn't change Cola for the world!!!! He is the most loving, curious, intuitive, friendly, playful boy.

The spirit this dog radiates is indescribable....

He is just getting aquainted with the grass.....the last little piles of snow have melted, and several times i would look to find him sitting or laying on the little pile, sometimes smaller than himself! lol The last bit to melt, he rolled all over. We are hoping he will love the water as much :) We would love to post a picture of him on the knee board with young Charlie  behind the boat this summer!



#16 Sherab

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:25 AM

Special dogs and special children have a way of bringing the unexpected blessings. Cola can be a running companion but he might need to be in a push stroller. Also your son can take Cola with him anywhere with the right gear, and willingness to carry his buddy over the rough stuff. Consider some of the Military or Search and Rescue gear. A good lifting harness could be a game changer.

 

https://www.rayallen...Rescue-Tracking

 

With the right gear you can go any place and do any thing....https://www.youtube....h?v=NAjKPq2oT8w

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=IOoTUAPY91E

 

http://www.k9storm.c...loguenew04.html

 

One more...http://www.dailytele...9-1226117347411


Edited by Sherab, 26 April 2014 - 11:33 AM.


#17 Denise E.

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 09:38 AM

I'm still waiting for my first pup.  Of course I'm drawn to the AI Dogs for all the personality characteristics they have - and the ancestry.

 

I am so glad I found Kim while doing dog type research and also this forum.

I think it is GREAT that there is this online community and exchange of information and especially letting Kim know if / when physical issues arise.  Communication is very important for the healthy future of this breed's legacy.

 

My adopted Dad didn't know that these dogs were being preserved, (finally something I can share with him!  :lol: ).  A living legacy, a connection - past, present, future.  We all have a stake in this.  What we do or don't do could affect the next seven generations.

 

Thank you Kim Laflamme for accepting this sacred journey and responsibility the elders of yours and other tribes have been keeping for thousands of years.  I pray that we can all do our part to keep these magnificent creatures healthy as companions for many future generations.

 

Everyone I've met on this forum seems to be of the same mindfulness.  Wopila! 



#18 miz molly

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 11:43 AM

Beautifully said Denise.  :)


When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world. ~John Muir




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