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#1 Starghoti

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 04:57 AM

 


   SHARING DOG RESEARCH AROUND THE WORLD; 

        Putting the dog puzzle together / connecting the dots  
 
by Kim La Flamme   -  updated 2014


In ancient times, not only the Chinese of 400 BC sailed up and down the west coast of North America. From the south came the Polynesian First peoples to the Americas along the southern Island chain, starting from Asia to Australia bringing their Dingo, New Guinea Singing dog types with them, to the west side of South America to Peru and what became the Inca cultures, that in turn traded with the northern cultures.

Around 5000 to 6000 years ago the Phoenicians sailed the Mediterranean, trading and selling goods up the Nile to Egypt. And with recent research it looks like they also traded and explored across the Atlantic throughout the eastern coast of the New World around 3000 to 4000 years ago. Everywhere man went, of course he also brought trading goods including his symbiotic partner, THE DOG.

One of the predecessors of the modern but primitive dogs, called Portuguese Podengo medio (medium size) were one of these trading goods. These dogs were distributed throughout the Mediterranean region, possibly bringing the first Jackal Gods into Egypt, and more than likely throughout the world. They consequently interbred thousands of years ago with local dogs to create the various Mediterranean breeds such as the Ibizan Hound, Cirneco dell'Etna, Pharaoh Hound and Podengo. Just as the different cultures in the new world were also interbreeding the dogs they already had, with new traded dogs from traders and new migrating cultures coming to the new world.  image-4.jpg
 
Now some of us believe dogs may have even been traded by these Phoenicians all the way up into Canada up the Mississippi river and down into South America. With possible remnants still left in the remote Amazonian jungles of South America, where these Phoenician traders sailed up the Amazon river. egyptian.jpg

The Phoenicians also traded for metals (copper during the copper age) in Cornwall (in the British Isles) but when copper prices went up so high, they began looking elsewhere around the world. It is likely that these dogs were also brought into the British Isles and as they migrated north, and became the ancestors of the Irish Wolfhound, Scottish Deerhound, Canaan Dogs, Russian Liekas, Siberian Huskies, Lapphunds, Bohunds, and Finish Spitz. Including possibly the old Vikings dogs that also ended up in the Americas, Greenland, Iceland, Nova Scotia and Canada that eventually became the Karelian Bear Dogs, Icelandic Shepherds, Tahltan Bear Dogs, American Indian Dogs etc.

 Clover-196x300.jpg Here is a good example of a modern rescued dog found in a remote area in Canada recently that both resembles the Village dogs & Tahltan bear dogs crossed together, that we now call AI dogs. This is an old color the First Peoples called Lead (that we still have in the breeding program) that we now call 'Blue and Tan.'
 

Portuguese Podengo medio (medium size), smooth coat
 image-3.jpg
In Portugal, the modern Podengo medio lives in outdoor kennels and is not kept as a household pet in most cases. Its life is all about hunting, as the Amazonian dogs, Karelians etc still are.

Newkim; now in the AI dog breeding program, from The Yukon Canada,
image.jpg shows the resemblance of the Old Dogs in Tahltan lines just found, with the primitive dogs of the Mediterranean region and the Amazonian Dogs (below)

Registered AI dog Tonka, shows the typical Mayan dog look of dogs in southern Mexico still being used as a herding hunting working dog, with the old Mayan First Peoples.  magic eyes.jpg
 
Here is a picture of these recently found old Mayan dogs, working on a ranch in Mexico, (close to where we found Tonka in our breeding program) - thanks to Geologist Jason Brown that contacted us a few years ago, wondering if these could be the old dogs.
image002.jpg

Grande Podengos hunting boar in Portugal
 image-2.jpg

From Mexico to the Amazonian Dogs found with the Amazon jungles First peoples  
055.jpg

A group of researchers from different researching directions have found what we feel is proof that the Phoenicians were here in both North and South America 3000 to 4000 years ago, during the copper age, trading for copper. The cost of copper all over Northern Europe, particularly within the British Isles, went up so high 3000 years ago that they began exploring the world looking for a cheaper source. When they would find it, they would teach the local inhabitants how to mine the copper and how to make their own copper tools and pots. They would then come back "every so many years" to trade other goods found in other areas for the raw copper ore and tools and art already made. The Phoenicians were the traders of that period of time and lived closer to the coast with huge storage sheds with giant sea and river going ships that the Egyptians helped them build. These ocean going ships could go up the Nile and Amazon, and to the Mississippi and Aransas Rivers with ease. Modern researchers have actually recently unburied these ships, just off the coast from the Canary Islands and carbon dated them to this same period of time.

Its also believed that the Chinese went up and down the West Coast of the US in ships larger than football fields even before that, and probably brought their dogs with them. I believe this is where the Wool dogs came from. The dogs the First Peoples of the BC Canadian areas raised for their fur on these islands off of BC. These dogs were very much like the small long haired Pekinese with short faces that originated in China. China also had a similar dog to the AI dogs that are to this day found in China in small numbers, called Chang Dogs, dating back to the Chang Dynasty. They are not considered a breed, but just a primitive working dog on old farms in rural China and Tibet. I have also seen pictures of primitive looking dogs from returning Vietnam Vets, and street dogs in India, that closely resemble, and probably related to, the AI dogs from the distant past.

In south America researchers have found copper and bronze tablets with Egyptian and Phoenician writings and carvings on them, that carbon date back 3000 years ago. That is when the Phoenicians also traded for cocaine from the Mayans and local First Peoples that they in turn traded to the Egyptians. They used this as a pain medication and for embalming their mummys. No Cocaine was grown in Europe. so had to have come from South America. Plus of course trading dogs back and forth also.

There have been plants found recently along these trade route rivers that only grew in Europe, not native to the Americas. And cave wall carvings of Egyptian art was also found along the Arkansas and Mississippi rivers all the way up into Canada. Plus we have found evidence all the way up the Mississippi River into Canada where the local First Peoples mined and stored Copper in caves. With old stories of traders from the East buying copper ore and teaching them how to make metal tools from copper. This is why the tribes welcomed the French trappers in the 1500s saying, welcome back we have saved your copper for you, for trade. The French trappers of course had no idea what they were talking about, but were very glad to be welcomed back. This is the only place in the Americas that the First Peoples made copper tools; taught to them by the Phoenician traders, that carbon date back 3000 years ago.

Lots of other proof, but this should be enough to complete the puzzle of how, when, and where dogs traveled with man. I believe this is why the American Indian Dog look so similar to the old Pharaoh Hounds and other primitive dogs found throughout the world. Also the Egyptian Pharaoh dogs could have, at least partly, come from here. Originating at least partially from coyotes here, then re-bred or crossed with the Egyptians' sacred Jackal Dogs and then traded back again, going both ways, back and forth, at different times and from areas of the world.

There is a carving of an Egyptian dog (looks like an AI dog or Egyptian Jackal God or both?) with an Egyptian God's ceremonial fan over its head in a cave off the Arkansas river (that drains into the Mississippi) that also carbon dates to 3000 years ago. Researchers always just thought these were Indian dogs, but what about the ceremonial Egyptian fan that outlines the dog above its head that carbon dates to 3000 years ago? Further proof that the Phoenicians were here traveling up the Mississippi River to the Arkansas trading goods and exploring along the route to Canada to get copper.

The biggest differences in the modern dogs from their old primitive ancestors; they did not have merling, brindles, spots or pinto/piebald markings, drop ears and curly tails- as this is a modern breeding indication. Same with the old dogs here in Alaska down into the Americas; they didn't have the spots as the modern dogs do, as this is a popular modern thing from the European dogs; probably so they could tell a Jackal or wolf from their domestic dogs, in modern times in Asia and Europe.

Most of this world wide research was found, through researching the dogs; as wherever man went, so went his dogs. These are the same dogs you can still see lost within the Amazon jungles with their First Peoples. Along with the few examples we have found (within our AI dog breeding program), tucked away in remote areas of the New World from Alaska through Canada down into South America to Patagonia, including areas like India, Vietnam, New Guinea, Iceland, Russia, China and Australia.

The below picture is a dog found recently with lost tribes in the jungles of the Amazon, and from Patagonia -by David Rostant; The Carib Tyke Registry: that we now share research with; Carib Tyke Registry/ Amerindian Hunting Dogs saved in an Amazonian dog registry.
image-1.jpg

All the primitive dogs of the world look very similar to one another; for a good reason, they are related just like the people are. 
 
In our next more detailed article we will show this connection even more between all the primitive dogs of the world, plus the DNA marker of the New World Dogs that were developed separately from the European dogs. Showing that dogs were also developed separately here more than 15,000 years ago possibly even older than the dogs of Asia and Ethiopia- where dog supposedly originated. Most old world scientists believe all domestic dogs originated in Asia and/or Ethiopia and migrated to the rest of the world from there. I dont believe this - and this New World marker should prove it. Just as a side note, Ethiopian and Asian wolves are not actually wolves at all. They are more jackal than wolf, showing dogs did not originate from wolves, but more from coyotes and jackals, from different parts of the world.

This connection brings us closer to the Jackals and Coyotes, being dogs' ancestors more than wolf. With new DNA research we are working on, it makes it so much easier to track the dogs, along with man, throughout the world and different cultures as they migrated or traded. Also being separately bred or originating in other areas and then crossed with these Asian dogs, coming in with new explorers, traders, migrating or warring groups.

Where man goes so does his best friend the dog. The more we connect the dots on dogs around the world; we also connect the dots for the close relationship of man with one another.

P.S. Please do your research and dont be fooled by these recent wolf dog breeders falsely selling their wolf-dogs as (Native) AI dogs or NAIDs. They have nothing to do with our old dogs and do NOT make good family pets

By Kim La Flamme ~ founder / trustee of the AI dogs for over 50 years now ~
"There is no such thing as a hyper dog. There are only exercise dependent dogs."
 
"Where I go, Dog follows. Where I stop, Dog settles. When I am lost, Dog finds me. When I am joyful, Dog joins me. Who I am, Dog knows. What I need, Dog becomes. Dog is great. Dog is good. Dog is everything. I am Dog codependent."
 

#2 Starghoti

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 03:41 PM

Additional pictures Very soon.
"There is no such thing as a hyper dog. There are only exercise dependent dogs."
 
"Where I go, Dog follows. Where I stop, Dog settles. When I am lost, Dog finds me. When I am joyful, Dog joins me. Who I am, Dog knows. What I need, Dog becomes. Dog is great. Dog is good. Dog is everything. I am Dog codependent."
 

#3 Sherab

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 06:44 PM

There is a stone on Beaver Island in Michigan that has a carving of the great lakes, part of Canada and the Mississippi river. It is though to be a few thousand years old. Also on the island in the museum, is an ax thought to be used by copper miners 5000 to 4000 years ago up in Copper Harbor and the area.



#4 Starghoti

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 05:31 AM

Additional pic/story- The story is; 2 Ladies were in Taiwan on business or vacation & rescued a litter of street dogs (lots of these ‘look a like’ street dogs there) … & managed to bring them to their homes in S. CA … where Joy lives, she met them while walking their dogs. Suzy thought Joy had a Taiwan dog … & Joy thought Suzy had an AI dog … crazy! Always amazing to me how similar all the primitive dogs are from all over the world. The pix of the old dogs in Viet Nam are just like these.

 

IMG_2016.jpg


"There is no such thing as a hyper dog. There are only exercise dependent dogs."
 
"Where I go, Dog follows. Where I stop, Dog settles. When I am lost, Dog finds me. When I am joyful, Dog joins me. Who I am, Dog knows. What I need, Dog becomes. Dog is great. Dog is good. Dog is everything. I am Dog codependent."
 

#5 Chinatola

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 05:47 AM

Fascinating....The stuff we learn here amazes me!


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#6 Sherab

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 06:10 AM

Newkim is Waki and Lili's daddy. Waki definitely has his daddy's chest and strong, stout torso. He loves to sit out in the snow. Cake looks more like Tonka. When we have them both out together everyone sees this is a dog breed right away but Waki by himself looks too much like he could just have come about by accident because his colors are not out of the ordinary. Cake just stumps people when out by herself. Yesterday it was - is that a fox? Or a wolf? Can you train it? Does it eat children? Then they get closer and see what a love sponge she is and there are really no more questions about temerment. Here in Michigan we just tell people Kim inherited his dogs and trades with other first peoples and they get it. Michigan hasn't yet lost it's memory of the older ways of people and animals.



#7 Starghoti

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 06:10 AM

I want to spend a week at Kim's just conversing with him and absorbing the information he as learned through the years.
"There is no such thing as a hyper dog. There are only exercise dependent dogs."
 
"Where I go, Dog follows. Where I stop, Dog settles. When I am lost, Dog finds me. When I am joyful, Dog joins me. Who I am, Dog knows. What I need, Dog becomes. Dog is great. Dog is good. Dog is everything. I am Dog codependent."
 

#8 Starghoti

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 06:14 AM

... Yesterday it was - is that a fox? Or a wolf? Can you train it? Does it eat children? Then they get closer and see what a love sponge she is and there are really no more questions about temerment. .

 

This is why I made this-  Travel Mug

lol

 


"There is no such thing as a hyper dog. There are only exercise dependent dogs."
 
"Where I go, Dog follows. Where I stop, Dog settles. When I am lost, Dog finds me. When I am joyful, Dog joins me. Who I am, Dog knows. What I need, Dog becomes. Dog is great. Dog is good. Dog is everything. I am Dog codependent."
 

#9 keywestmama22

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 06:59 AM

I get that all of the time too!!! Yeah I am just walking a fox around town!!

#10 Sherab

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 07:17 AM

Saving foxes from obesity, one animal at a time...



#11 Deborah Merchant

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:06 AM

 
   SHARING DOG RESEARCH AROUND THE WORLD; 
        Putting the dog puzzle together / connecting the dots  
 
by Kim La Flamme   -  updated 2014
In ancient times, not only the Chinese of 400 BC sailed up and down the west coast of North America. From the south came the Polynesian First peoples to the Americas along the southern Island chain, starting from Asia to Australia bringing their Dingo, New Guinea Singing dog types with them, to the west side of South America to Peru and what became the Inca cultures, that in turn traded with the northern cultures.
Around 5000 to 6000 years ago the Phoenicians sailed the Mediterranean, trading and selling goods up the Nile to Egypt. And with recent research it looks like they also traded and explored across the Atlantic throughout the eastern coast of the New World around 3000 to 4000 years ago. Everywhere man went, of course he also brought trading goods including his symbiotic partner, THE DOG.
One of the predecessors of the modern but primitive dogs, called Portuguese Podengo medio (medium size) were one of these trading goods. These dogs were distributed throughout the Mediterranean region, possibly bringing the first Jackal Gods into Egypt, and more than likely throughout the world. They consequently interbred thousands of years ago with local dogs to create the various Mediterranean breeds such as the Ibizan Hound, Cirneco dell'Etna, Pharaoh Hound and Podengo. Just as the different cultures in the new world were also interbreeding the dogs they already had, with new traded dogs from traders and new migrating cultures coming to the new world.  [img=http://www.iidoba.or...attachicon.gif] image-4.jpg
 
Now some of us believe dogs may have even been traded by these Phoenicians all the way up into Canada up the Mississippi river and down into South America. With possible remnants still left in the remote Amazonian jungles of South America, where these Phoenician traders sailed up the Amazon river. [img=http://www.iidoba.or...attachicon.gif] egyptian.jpg
The Phoenicians also traded for metals (copper during the copper age) in Cornwall (in the British Isles) but when copper prices went up so high, they began looking elsewhere around the world. It is likely that these dogs were also brought into the British Isles and as they migrated north, and became the ancestors of the Irish Wolfhound, Scottish Deerhound, Canaan Dogs, Russian Liekas, Siberian Huskies, Lapphunds, Bohunds, and Finish Spitz. Including possibly the old Vikings dogs that also ended up in the Americas, Greenland, Iceland, Nova Scotia and Canada that eventually became the Karelian Bear Dogs, Icelandic Shepherds, Tahltan Bear Dogs, American Indian Dogs etc.
 [img=http://www.iidoba.or...attachicon.gif] Clover-196x300.jpg Here is a good example of a modern rescued dog found in a remote area in Canada recently that both resembles the Village dogs & Tahltan bear dogs crossed together, that we now call AI dogs. This is an old color the First Peoples called Lead (that we still have in the breeding program) that we now call 'Blue and Tan.'
 
Portuguese Podengo medio (medium size), smooth coat
 [img=http://www.iidoba.or...attachicon.gif] image-3.jpg
In Portugal, the modern Podengo medio lives in outdoor kennels and is not kept as a household pet in most cases. Its life is all about hunting, as the Amazonian dogs, Karelians etc still are.
Newkim; now in the AI dog breeding program, from The Yukon Canada,
[img=http://www.iidoba.or...attachicon.gif] image.jpg shows the resemblance of the Old Dogs in Tahltan lines just found, with the primitive dogs of the Mediterranean region and the Amazonian Dogs (below)
Registered AI dog Tonka, shows the typical Mayan dog look of dogs in southern Mexico still being used as a herding hunting working dog, with the old Mayan First Peoples.  [img=http://www.iidoba.or...attachicon.gif] magic eyes.jpg
 
Here is a picture of these recently found old Mayan dogs, working on a ranch in Mexico, (close to where we found Tonka in our breeding program) - thanks to Geologist Jason Brown that contacted us a few years ago, wondering if these could be the old dogs.
[img=http://www.iidoba.or...attachicon.gif] image002.jpg
Grande Podengos hunting boar in Portugal
 [img=http://www.iidoba.or...attachicon.gif] image-2.jpg
From Mexico to the Amazonian Dogs found with the Amazon jungles First peoples  
[img=http://www.iidoba.or...attachicon.gif] 055.jpg
A group of researchers from different researching directions have found what we feel is proof that the Phoenicians were here in both North and South America 3000 to 4000 years ago, during the copper age, trading for copper. The cost of copper all over Northern Europe, particularly within the British Isles, went up so high 3000 years ago that they began exploring the world looking for a cheaper source. When they would find it, they would teach the local inhabitants how to mine the copper and how to make their own copper tools and pots. They would then come back "every so many years" to trade other goods found in other areas for the raw copper ore and tools and art already made. The Phoenicians were the traders of that period of time and lived closer to the coast with huge storage sheds with giant sea and river going ships that the Egyptians helped them build. These ocean going ships could go up the Nile and Amazon, and to the Mississippi and Aransas Rivers with ease. Modern researchers have actually recently unburied these ships, just off the coast from the Canary Islands and carbon dated them to this same period of time.
Its also believed that the Chinese went up and down the West Coast of the US in ships larger than football fields even before that, and probably brought their dogs with them. I believe this is where the Wool dogs came from. The dogs the First Peoples of the BC Canadian areas raised for their fur on these islands off of BC. These dogs were very much like the small long haired Pekinese with short faces that originated in China. China also had a similar dog to the AI dogs that are to this day found in China in small numbers, called Chang Dogs, dating back to the Chang Dynasty. They are not considered a breed, but just a primitive working dog on old farms in rural China and Tibet. I have also seen pictures of primitive looking dogs from returning Vietnam Vets, and street dogs in India, that closely resemble, and probably related to, the AI dogs from the distant past.
In south America researchers have found copper and bronze tablets with Egyptian and Phoenician writings and carvings on them, that carbon date back 3000 years ago. That is when the Phoenicians also traded for cocaine from the Mayans and local First Peoples that they in turn traded to the Egyptians. They used this as a pain medication and for embalming their mummys. No Cocaine was grown in Europe. so had to have come from South America. Plus of course trading dogs back and forth also.
There have been plants found recently along these trade route rivers that only grew in Europe, not native to the Americas. And cave wall carvings of Egyptian art was also found along the Arkansas and Mississippi rivers all the way up into Canada. Plus we have found evidence all the way up the Mississippi River into Canada where the local First Peoples mined and stored Copper in caves. With old stories of traders from the East buying copper ore and teaching them how to make metal tools from copper. This is why the tribes welcomed the French trappers in the 1500s saying, welcome back we have saved your copper for you, for trade. The French trappers of course had no idea what they were talking about, but were very glad to be welcomed back. This is the only place in the Americas that the First Peoples made copper tools; taught to them by the Phoenician traders, that carbon date back 3000 years ago.
Lots of other proof, but this should be enough to complete the puzzle of how, when, and where dogs traveled with man. I believe this is why the American Indian Dog look so similar to the old Pharaoh Hounds and other primitive dogs found throughout the world. Also the Egyptian Pharaoh dogs could have, at least partly, come from here. Originating at least partially from coyotes here, then re-bred or crossed with the Egyptians' sacred Jackal Dogs and then traded back again, going both ways, back and forth, at different times and from areas of the world.
There is a carving of an Egyptian dog (looks like an AI dog or Egyptian Jackal God or both?) with an Egyptian God's ceremonial fan over its head in a cave off the Arkansas river (that drains into the Mississippi) that also carbon dates to 3000 years ago. Researchers always just thought these were Indian dogs, but what about the ceremonial Egyptian fan that outlines the dog above its head that carbon dates to 3000 years ago? Further proof that the Phoenicians were here traveling up the Mississippi River to the Arkansas trading goods and exploring along the route to Canada to get copper.
The biggest differences in the modern dogs from their old primitive ancestors; they did not have merling, brindles, spots or pinto/piebald markings, drop ears and curly tails- as this is a modern breeding indication. Same with the old dogs here in Alaska down into the Americas; they didn't have the spots as the modern dogs do, as this is a popular modern thing from the European dogs; probably so they could tell a Jackal or wolf from their domestic dogs, in modern times in Asia and Europe.
Most of this world wide research was found, through researching the dogs; as wherever man went, so went his dogs. These are the same dogs you can still see lost within the Amazon jungles with their First Peoples. Along with the few examples we have found (within our AI dog breeding program), tucked away in remote areas of the New World from Alaska through Canada down into South America to Patagonia, including areas like India, Vietnam, New Guinea, Iceland, Russia, China and Australia.
The below picture is a dog found recently with lost tribes in the jungles of the Amazon, and from Patagonia -by David Rostant; The Carib Tyke Registry: that we now share research with; Carib Tyke Registry/ Amerindian Hunting Dogs saved in an Amazonian dog registry.
[img=http://www.iidoba.or...attachicon.gif] image-1.jpg
All the primitive dogs of the world look very similar to one another; for a good reason, they are related just like the people are. 
 
In our next more detailed article we will show this connection even more between all the primitive dogs of the world, plus the DNA marker of the New World Dogs that were developed separately from the European dogs. Showing that dogs were also developed separately here more than 15,000 years ago possibly even older than the dogs of Asia and Ethiopia- where dog supposedly originated. Most old world scientists believe all domestic dogs originated in Asia and/or Ethiopia and migrated to the rest of the world from there. I dont believe this - and this New World marker should prove it. Just as a side note, Ethiopian and Asian wolves are not actually wolves at all. They are more jackal than wolf, showing dogs did not originate from wolves, but more from coyotes and jackals, from different parts of the world.
This connection brings us closer to the Jackals and Coyotes, being dogs' ancestors more than wolf. With new DNA research we are working on, it makes it so much easier to track the dogs, along with man, throughout the world and different cultures as they migrated or traded. Also being separately bred or originating in other areas and then crossed with these Asian dogs, coming in with new explorers, traders, migrating or warring groups.
Where man goes so does his best friend the dog. The more we connect the dots on dogs around the world; we also connect the dots for the close relationship of man with one another.
P.S. Please do your research and dont be fooled by these recent wolf dog breeders falsely selling their wolf-dogs as (Native) AI dogs or NAIDs. They have nothing to do with our old dogs and do NOT make good family pets
By Kim La Flamme ~ founder / trustee of the AI dogs for over 50 years now ~


Such a cool article. I like to watch a show called America Unearthed which shows lots of ways the conventional American history is very inaccurate. One show focused on ancient copper mines in Michigan where there is lots of evidence indicating Phoenicians (I think I have that right) came as early as 5000 years ago to mine this copper/buy and trade for this copper because prices were getting so high in European sources possibly due to scarcity. The forensic geologist is Scott Wolden who hosts that show. I know you have plenty of your own valid research, so I'm just sharing something I've seen related to what you are saying.

I have a question, though. I've read all dogs, even jackals and coyotes, are ultimately descended from the wolf. I totally understand and agree with not having any level of wolf-dog as a family pet, and would not be snookered by someone telling me a wolf-dog is an American Indian dog. But I don't understand the emphasis on wolves not being ancient ancestors of AI dogs, as if that were a bad thing from 20,000 years ago or whatever. I had noticed in my search for my next dog, that Canaan dogs, Dingos, and a few of the other ancient breeds that seemed to attract me most had strong resemblances to each other. But I guess I don't understand why it is so important to show that many ancient breeds, including the AI dog, originated from the jackal and coyote more than the wolf. Does someone have time to explain this? I can certainly see that some ancient breeds like the Phoenician dog, do not resemble wolves much. And I'm no expert on breeds or breeding, I'm just interested.

#12 Gib

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 04:29 AM

I haven't even read it all and I've got to say this is wonderful...

 

 

 



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#13 Gib

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 07:16 AM

I haven't even read it all and I've got to say this is wonderful...

 

 

 

 

I've read it now.  Better than I had hoped...  

 

It's too much info to print on the back of a AI Dog business card so it would have to be a brochure!  

 

Are there high resolution versions of the map and/or the paintings?  I did a quick google and found nothing similar.



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#14 Denise E.

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 08:49 AM

When I first new it was time for a dog, I took a "survey" on Petfinder or Animal Planet 0 can't remember which.  The Canaan Dog was a match for me.

Every time I searched for Canaan Dog, I would be shown hounds & Leopard dogs; not quite the same thing.  The Canaan Dog is a primitive dog and I liked that.  Then one google search brought up song dog kennels.  After reading the site I knew this was it.

 

I have the same question as you Starghoti - about the origins 20,000 or 15,000 years ago - I don't have access to DNA records so I don't know - but I do have experience with modern coyotes and the modern coyote dog hybrid hasn't been good. It was two unrelated dogs rescued from the side of road - one attacked when you turned your back and the other was people friendly but tore up objects.  Both liked to bite and tear (just on different things).

 

MAYBE the coyotes and jackals (no experience with Jackals) were different thousands of years ago when primitive man began selective breeding?

 

I often wonder if there is any fox DNA?  Were any of these (wolf, coyote, Jackal, fox?) interbreeding compatible?

 

I have submitted an ancestry DNA test and was dumbfounded to find out that even though we may be 50% Italian and 50% English descent (an example) - our DNA could show 100% of either!  We (people) don't get % like if we calculated our ancestry from a family tree.

 

I wonder if this happens in DNA ancestry of dogs also?

 

How ever the primitive domestic dogs were created, they were selected with care and knowledge to further enhance the needs.

 

There are so many varieties of corn and potatoes, etc.  All of this native peoples created so many yeas ago without a microscope or slides.

They really knew what they were doing!

 

 



#15 miz molly

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:14 AM

I have a question, though. I've read all dogs, even jackals and coyotes, are ultimately descended from the wolf. I totally understand and agree with not having any level of wolf-dog as a family pet, and would not be snookered by someone telling me a wolf-dog is an American Indian dog. But I don't understand the emphasis on wolves not being ancient ancestors of AI dogs, as if that were a bad thing from 20,000 years ago or whatever. I had noticed in my search for my next dog, that Canaan dogs, Dingos, and a few of the other ancient breeds that seemed to attract me most had strong resemblances to each other. But I guess I don't understand why it is so important to show that many ancient breeds, including the AI dog, originated from the jackal and coyote more than the wolf. Does someone have time to explain this? I can certainly see that some ancient breeds like the Phoenician dog, do not resemble wolves much. And I'm no expert on breeds or breeding, I'm just interested.

 

Denise, here is a response from Kim on your question:

 

Quote Kim Laflamme:

I’ve answered this so many times … I will start with; Dogs are proven to be descended from Asian & Ethiopian wolves “agreed”. But these canines are mis-named, they are not wolves at all they are more coyote / jackal types not wolf types. So right there should be a red flag!
 
There is no argument that Jackals & coyotes came originally from wolves … just like we originally came from monkeys. But there was Cro-Magnon man that was not a monkey, but the start of man. Coyote & jackal are the more survivor canines that joined man to become dog, NOT WOLF.
Unfortunately wolves cannot adapt to modern life as coyotes & jackals can.
 
In talking to all my old Elder’s from years ago, there were many reasons they would never have crossed a dog with a wolf … but in many old First peoples languages, the word for dog & coyote is the same … just with another word meaning wild or domestic used within a sentence ; was the only way you could tell the difference. ..... … but the dogs closest relative is the jackal & coyote … that eventually does go back to the original wolf ancestor that evolved into the survivor canine “jackal / coyote” … then dog.

When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world. ~John Muir

#16 Denise E.

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 01:37 PM

Thanks Miz Molly, Was just reading the post in this topic. Missed that.

Red wolves (Eastern USA) are said to have some coyote ancestry. They don't look exactly like timber wolves, they are smaller and they don't look like Connecticut or Illinois Coyotes. Normally these animals, wolves & coyotes don't interbreed.

I was reading some interbreeding science on the web after I posted. (Interbreeding meaning a fertile offspring can be produced). I DID find out why (dogs, wolves and coyotes) can't breed with foxes. It has to do with a differing number of chromosomes. Somewhere the fox branched off differently over time, evolution....

I have an associate that volunteers for salty dog rescue in Seattle, Washington. She adopted one of the dogs she was fostering and rehabilitating. It is a Formosan Mountain Dog. Interesting history of the breed. Also called a Taiwan Native Dog.

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Edited by Denise E., 30 April 2014 - 01:39 PM.


#17 Sherab

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 03:29 AM

This just in. But it says to me they don't really know from the DNA and now think there's a "missing link" and Kim is right. http://www.livescien...s-extinct.html. I think some people get too hung up on how something is said and don't try to understand what's being said.



#18 Sherab

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 04:45 AM

For clarification, I read this as saying the same thing - first there was some sort of ancient wolf dog ancestor - we don't know who that was - apparently it's not modern Wolf directly and now they think it is extinct then there were wolves and wild dogs as branches - dogs like the dingo -then there was domestication. It doesn't matter to me if different people domesticated at different global locations at the same time or if there was one original domestication event. I'm just glad it happened. Nor does it matter to me if friendly "Neaderwolf" hung around garbage dumps (as postulated by Nova or what ever that PBS special was that we partially watched and had to turn off due to the participatory barking from our pack) and bred with other friendly "neaderwolves" like the Russian Foxes to make dog, including dingo or if wild dog came first out of "neaderwolf" by some other non-man made evolutionary pressure to adapt then domestication after that event. I think it's astute to observe w/o DNA that modern wolf and dog are different enough that the jump wasn't directly from modern wolf to dog. The brains are different, leading to different thought capability - adaptability. Sounds a lot like arguments around missing links and early Man. Apparently the DNA has caught up to that just now for dogs by sequencing full genomes of modern wolves and selected dogs. I see people get hung up (including other bloggers) on "well he said the dog came from the coyote" and that's can't see the forest for the trees. To which I'd say go read Joseph Campbell to improve the ability to see paradigm, overarching themes and metaphor. I think we'd make more progress in science if people weren't so busy ego bashing and getting hung up on wee technicalities and would look beyond. Sure the precision has to come but I think if we'd listen to observation of first people we'd make better hypotheses and come to results faster in many areas. Just my 2 cents.

 

http://www.livescien...rs-extinct.html



#19 Denise E.

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 12:24 PM

LOL!

 

You are right Sherab!

 

From my ancestry DNA test - I've got about 498 2nd to 6th cousins per Ancesty.com (by DNA marker matching ...) and NONE of these people are actually related to me.  I've emailed some and looked at others' family tree listing and no common surnames.  <_<

 

At least one person I am supposed to be related to took the same test and we don't come up as a match at all!  These are maternal lines so unless I was switched in the hospital it should show a relation....   :blink:  (PS that didn't happen)

 

I am interested in historical info, the universe, us, ...  (hence my own ancestry research) BUT I do FIRMLY believe that science is catching up with the First peoples of all Nations.  B)

 

 



#20 Starghoti

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 04:21 AM

I firmly believe that there is a vast difference between Science and Wisdom.

 

;)

 

Science says "Dogs came from Wolves"

 

Wisdom says much different.

I truly believe that our dogs came from the prehistoric coyote ancestors...

Knowing my dogs as I do, knowing their behavior, seeing them move and interact with the world.


"There is no such thing as a hyper dog. There are only exercise dependent dogs."
 
"Where I go, Dog follows. Where I stop, Dog settles. When I am lost, Dog finds me. When I am joyful, Dog joins me. Who I am, Dog knows. What I need, Dog becomes. Dog is great. Dog is good. Dog is everything. I am Dog codependent."
 




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