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Unhappy Seeming New Pup


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Hi All.

 

My how quickly feelings swing in this crazy new puppy world. Sita is doing well in many ways, mostly easily house training, accepting a leash and naturally 'heeling' as we go on neighborhood walks, and loving each new person and animal she meets (can't let her get too friendly with unknown dogs of course because she has only had her first shot the day we picked her up).

 

The trouble is she just seems often very flat and unsparkly eyed, this having to do with the limits we place on her. Trying to do tough love and balance the ton of affection I feel and have for her with not yielding to her demands to get out of her crate or let her get up on the coffee table, pull down the doggie gate, leave the potty are without potting , or whatever else she has in her mind that she wants.

 

Is it abnormal for her to be barking herself ragged and hoarse each time we crate her, even after long play or walk sessions, a full week after she arrived? She does mostly quietly sleep through the night especially the first few with the tether instead of the crate, but since we started crating her at night she has made sleeping for us more difficult.

 

This all with us taking time off so we can be with her, and do it 'right' these first weeks.

 

Worse, emotionally, for me and maybe her is that she just seems flat and not very affectionate the past few days, more excited to see strangers or new friends than to see us, the 'baddies' who are making her do things she doesn't like. She is very strong willed (welcome to AI dogs, right?!) I'm worried that I'm not finding the right balance between 'tough' and 'love,'

 

Me being a big emotional softy worried that she is not going to bond with me, or that I'm messing up our relationship for life is not helping.

 

Any words of wisdom, suggestions, or encouragement would be most welcome. Thank you.

 

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How do you "tough love" her?

 

When I raised pups, I would redirect their unreasonable demands. I would gently chide, not get all heavy-yell-scold.. pups usually don't need that until they are older.. if then.. When I found K'ne on the coffee table, I told her "You don't belong up there." and gently grabbed her by her scruff, and quickly and gently deposited her on the floor. If you are truly raising your voice, or your hear rate changes or your breathing/blood pressure.. aka- if you are getting MAD at her, you are doing it wrong. :)

 

Catching them Before they get into mischief, and anticipating things and planning on having redirects.. See them looking wistfully at a shoe - offer them a kong with a small smear of peanutbutter inside - does wonders. They require almost No scolding, and don't learn bad behaviors to begin with.

"Tough Love" means hold your ground and be consistent and provide leadership- not large amounts of punishment and yelling and scolding.

'No pup, you don't get your way. Yes I love you, and yes we are a team, yes this is for your own good. Here- let's learn to sit, it's fun! No I will not let you chew that- here, chew this instead.'

 

In raising 2 of these dogs, the only damage was a couple small tears in the flannel sheet we use to cover the bed, and a couple lightly remodeled blankets that were in crates with them no biggie.

 

100_0661.jpg

Perhaps you have a 'sensitive' pup that doesn't need a lot of real scolding, just direction and training. Just my $.02

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Yes she is a sensitive one according to Kim.

 

I've only gotten 'mad' at her once, and it showed in my voice and my body, I've been a little sleep deprived and running on fumes, which is contributing to me being a little grouchy and anxious. it definitely affected her, and I'm vowing not to do that again. Calm and assertive says Cesar and everybody who knows dogs, like you

 

Really I'm sure that my anxiety around doing it right, and wanting her to bond with me, is causing some energetic barrier...probably hard for her to fully relax and see me as alpha when I'm in a state like that if she is as sensitive to energy as everyone says AI dogs are...thereby affecting the respect/affection continuum

 

I don't want to make it sound like there aren't fun/connected moments, there are. Lots of them really. Just this sense that she doesn't really feel at home yet

 

In some sense, I probably just need to follow my feeling, lots of information from different sources saying at sometimes different things (like one website that says once you crate a dog, under no circumstances let them out until they are calm for several minutes, and not to worry they will get over it even if it takes weeks. Another website saying, you could cause permanent psychological damage using this approach! I'm a psychotherapist, and from my understanding of child development as well as working with many clients who were deeply affected by lack of affection/misatuned parenting, it's really hard for me to let her 'cry it out'. of course, she is a dog and not a person...a much bigger mystery for me at the moment)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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First a hug. There is always another day and always other ways around. So, one marshmallow to another...

 

I think you are putting way too much pressure on your self. You don't need to be perfect. Let everyone off the hook. Life is sloppy and even warts and bumps can be enjoyable. This phase doesn't last forever but they are babies and they do baby things. They will be a lot of work for the first 6 months (until the teeth come in). Then it gets much easier.

 

Now the pup is a baby. You should focus on the love part and unless she's after a power chord or something of real magnitude, don't use the tough. BTW there are professional trainers that can be used with great results when the dog is 1 year of age. If you want real precision and it's not in you to do the training this is an option. This is what we did with 2 of our GSDs. You won't ruin your pup if you are "softer" with it during the puppy time. After all you don't expect a human child to not use a diaper right away and you don't expect him or her to drive right away. Patience. Chances are your pup does many things well - such as happily greeting strangers and not hating other dogs. This is huge. Take joy in this. Appreciate it and continue to cultivate it. Sit will come with time. Stay will come with time. Mastery will come with time - such as not breaking stay or not going in the house. So will pooping off lead, including recall with nearby chipmunk - Waki is nearly 3 and he is now learning this. We live in the woods with many temptations and distractions - so this is big for us. Huge - if you knew what he was like during his "teens". This is a journey.

 

On the unpredictable potty - this is probably the number 1 thing every puppy cycle. I've had 5 German Shepherds and 2 Indian dogs over the last 20 plus years - no one goes potty on command, it's more of a request. Hence the song (poop poop poop its fun to poop) and the celebration of success. Shiva is 11.5 and he gets the song and the cheering every time. Sometimes in bad weather, such as today where it was 4 degrees F, they are not out side and we don't go for a long walk, and it will be harder for them to "turn on the pee or poop" after being inside and not being able to go at will. Other things can also impact the pottying - Waki couldn't do anything in public for months as a pup and during hunting season if someone fires off a gun somewhere forget that poop that was just about to come out. All our dogs have weather issues - Raining - oh , oh my delicate feet - can't leave the house. Up here we have what we call the "poop lights" because one of our brave GSDs wouldn't go after dark w/o them. When the potty cycle is one of too much pressure and expectation this can weird out the dog. If you do a search I'm sure you will see advice on getting the pup on a food, water and potty schedule and not deviating from it. Taking up water after a certain time at night is popular puppy advice. They grow fast and the bladders will get bigger. Basically just about everything is occasion to take a pup out to potty. Just got up from a nap - out you go... just ate... just played...you get the idea. Watch for the "potty tell" - they all have it. Accident in the house - chances are your pup is stressed about doing wrong. When it does happen, discover it and call the pup and say do you want to potty out side? Take it out then (even though he/she is probably "empty" this is a redirect) and also let it see that you clean up w/o making a fuss. These guys are really smart. Ours have always "gotten it". Do also take care to use a potty removal product to get the smell out or the accident spot can become a repeat place.

 

The best you can do is provide adequate and regularly scheduled opportunities and be persistent until success. Each dog has it's own pattern. For example Waki will peeeeeeeeeee for like 5 minutes in the morning. It's like he has a second bladder but he won't poop. Not until the sun comes up. You will learn the baby's rhythm. Let it unfold. If you go out and she doesn't go, just accept that you will be going out again - no matter the dog's age. In Baton Rouge we had a dog door and a fenced yard. That was sweet. Maybe that's an option?

 

Indian dogs seem soft to me. By that I mean a little correction goes a long way and sometimes not in the direction you want if you aren't careful. I'd spend the next week working on the love and the sparkle.

 

Yes I would say that the howling until hoarse is excessive. We didn't crate Cake because I'm sure she would have howled the whole first night and life is too short to not sleep. As mentioned before, we've rarely used the crate. We've also rarely had any accidents in the house. If all you are trying to do is prevent potty in the house by night crating, make sure there's been potty success then go to bed with the pup on or off the bed (gate up or door closed). We had both AIDs on the bed as pups - zero accidents and they will help you wake up if they need to go (and do expect to get up during the night in the beginning).

 

Do you really need the crate? Maybe yes, maybe no. For us it's no - Company or workers at the house - dogs go outside in the fenced area or behind a baby gate. At the hotel, it's just like home. Dogs sleep on a dog pad or on a corner of the bed. Pic nick - Dogs under the table on a tether or in the car or camper if not not settling. We don't do agility or dog competitions so we just don't have need of formal crating. Every dog has a spot - Shiva has a dog bed he loves, Cake's safe place is on our bed and Waki will go in the tent or under the bed (yes he still fits) or in my office when he wants privacy.

 

Good luck and keep us posted. Hopefully you will see that sparkle return in a day or so.

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Looks like our posts crossed. Best thing you can do is let go and trust your feelings / instincts. Get out of your head and into your heart/ gut. We will give you conflicting info here too. You have to filter and figure out what works. Sometimes the right thing seems nuts if you think too much.

 

PS Shiva crated like a little gentleman as a pup, but his personality is totally different from Cake.

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Wow. I accept that hug Sherab. I'm really touched by the effort and time folks have put in today responding to me, it helps a lot.

 

Trusting my gut, which is telling me that hollering until she's hoarse is too much too fast--and that, in her pretty sterling behavior potty wise, being agreeable with our other pets wise, and not destroying the house wise she is maybe letting me know that I can trust her to explore her world without having to be too paranoid that she is going to have an accident...the pursuit of an accident-free reality is causing a disruption in the force

let mistakes happen. let things get a little out of hand. I have a real interest in my pets freedom and creativity as well as them having good manners and being easy to live with. it's worked well with my cats...

 

happy sparkly animals are at least as important to me as well behaved. both are essential

 

thanks so much you two

 

 

 

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Yesterday was good. I relaxed a lot, Sita was wildly playful with our other two dogs, and I even let her sleep with us tee hee. She was angelic, no accidents, and we all slept much better. I'm not worrying about her taking that to be an alpha thing, being able to sleep in our bed...more like a bonding, welcome to the family thing, plus it was very nice for all

 

She is sparkly this morning :)

 

She still is capable of hour long howling freak outs, as she did last night when I left her in the blocked of kitchen (experimenting with that instead of crate) when I had to leave for an hour and my wife was in bed (which definitely kept her awake). I'm considering an anti-bark collar, any thoughts?

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Sri, I don't know who came up with the idea that dogs on the bed = an alpha problem. I've never experienced it. Did I mention I have had 5 German Shepherds? West German and Czech lines - serious ones? Let me tell you about Texas. 90 lbs this dog was and no fat - all muscle. Texas was so alpha that when he was kenneled no other dog dared bark until he barked. This dog had a head the size of a basket ball. When we walked there was no life on the streets - like in a western before a shoot out. Large men crossed the street to avoid having to walk past. Yet this dog would let me hug him like a giant teddy bear until I fell asleep at which point he'd quietly slip off the bed. I had no alpha confusion with him - mama was in charge.Texas.jpg

 

Now let me tell you about Cake. Cake is the least alpha dog we've ever had and quite possibly on the far end of the bell curve based on the many dogs we have met in our lives. She sleeps on the bed like a cat. When she needs to pee she oozes up and nuzzles one of us awake, making little Cake effervesent sounds. I can tell you that in winter it's delightful to have a "bed warmer" which was a function of the AIDs in the past. I'm quite certain she'd have an aneurysm if she thought the role of alpha was falling to her. For reference here she is sleeping on Shiva who has always been about 70 lbs (vs 90). belovedprotector.jpg

 

RE: bark collar - Strongly against. I suspect the fit is due to separation. Can you leave her with the other dogs behind the gate? or be in the area where she is gated? Or use foam ear plugs - this will all blow over when she is slightly older and you can give her free run. When our pups were little we would either be in the gated area or the 4 legged pack would be. We have done this with all our pups vs leaving them separated from the pack.

Edited by Sherab
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HI!

 

I've only been on sporadically lately - go figure new pup - LOL!

 

I LIKE how you starting this topic in a training section - I've been so sleep deprived - my brain went to mush! My Mom & friends with babies laughed and knowingly snickered 'mommie brain".

 

My post probably looks like - complain, complain, complain, when REALLY - LIFE IS GOOD! :wub:

 

I wouldn't recommend a bark collar at this age. It can be a successful training aid if needed, but as an adult .... is my thoughts.

 

Remember all that waiting, and 'can't wait' - feelings. This is what we waited for!!!!!!! LOL!

(I am totally empathizing with you! -_- )

 

It's funny, this batch of new pups and us that have been actively waiting, all have our own fears and questions and sometimes doubts.

 

Yes, there was a day that I thought I lost that puppy bond, that Tayamni wouldn't trust me and then I realized I had been tough-love training from my head and not my heart.

 

I think training has to be individualized for each pup, depending on personality - just like they don't all like the same toy and kids all learn at different rates and absorb things differently.

 

I like the advice the EXPERIENCED AI Dog owners replied to you.

 

If the tethered at night worked and you like that, why not stick with it? ;)

 

Growing up my Aunt who bred and showed AKC miniature poodles had crates but my family never had a crate for a puppy or dog. We did have gates and happened to have half doors around the house to contain pups to a non carpeted area while house training (when not at home).

 

Tayamni is crate training well, especially for sleeping. We keep her in the kitchen in the morning and when we can't directly watch her, also I have it blocked so she can't wander down the hall to sites unseen.

 

This is working for her. It was a bit of trial and error to find what is working best - it is a Work In Progress - definitely!

 

I give lots of rewards when she redirects to something wanted! Rewards: praise, petting and treats ....

I have found with Tayamni that since my sister and her dog have come back down to the house, Tayamni needs to be let out more often to puddle.

 

I also found out (before they came back) that Tayamni wants to please me and giving her little more privilege and the constant redirecting unwanted behavior, still continuing 'tough-love' - like "off" and turning away from her and sometimes and little pinch on the neck when she plays too rough and mouths / nips.

It's not a miracle cure but maybe it should be tough-love love because I think putting heart in the tough-love is really important.

 

Tayamni nipped Roger on the paw trying to get him to play and he turned and pinned her very quickly! She got the hint but still follows him around and tried to play with him. :)

 

I have also found that there are always new challenges Tayamni graduates to. I'm sure you'll find that with Sita.

I hope you can find your calm space! I know you will! :rolleyes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Yesterday was good. I relaxed a lot, Sita was wildly playful with our other two dogs, and I even let her sleep with us tee hee. She was angelic, no accidents, and we all slept much better. I'm not worrying about her taking that to be an alpha thing, being able to sleep in our bed...more like a bonding, welcome to the family thing, plus it was very nice for all She is sparkly this morning :) She still is capable of hour long howling freak outs, as she did last night when I left her in the blocked of kitchen (experimenting with that instead of crate) when I had to leave for an hour and my wife was in bed (which definitely kept her awake). I'm considering an anti-bark collar, any thoughts?

 

I like Sherab's idea, is it safe to have one of the other 4 leggeds in with her in the kitchen?

AND Starghoti's .02 are always GOLD!

 

I can't remember who suggested a Peanut Butter filled Kong or similar type toy to give a couple minutes before you are leaving.

NOTE: on the fillable toy with a sticky/gummy lick out substance, AKA peanut butter (I have an airborne allergy to those so none of it at this house). If some one has sensitive allergy, there are alternatives. Sweet Potato for example, or canned pumpkin .... maybe add in some kibble to it, or other non-toxic fruit or something?

 

PB is great because .... well dab a bit in your pups or mouth or another dogs and watch the faces they make - it's priceless and they really like it! Reminds me of a kid chewing a too huge wad of gum!

 

Can't say Sita won't howl but maybe that type of treat given FIRST and then both when you are home (not leaving) and also when leaving will help? (This way she won't necessarily associate that treat with you leaving)

 

Just some middle of the night / pre-dawn prattling :P

 

 

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Another fun Kong trick is put a bit of plain yogurt mixed with flavor of choice: liverwurst, peanut butter, etc..and put it in the freezer. Best on hard surfaces like kitchen tile though, and someplace where they do not have access to furniture without supervision.

As part of the 'tough love' in our house, one of our rules enforced from day one- No Toys on the Furniture. So they do not ever chew toys/bones on the furniture, so there is almost No chance of them chewing The furniture.. lol And we have inside toys and outside toys. Makes an automatic 'Drop' at doors, which comes in handy when they have an old slimy moss covered stick or possible dead bird or whatever.. ;)

 

And you are quite welcome. All part of the AIDog family thang.

 

I Too am totally against the anti-bark collar. She will grow out of this phase soon, it just takes the learning of coping skills.

Why teach her that - when you leave and she becomes afraid, she then experiences Pain on top of her uncertainties and fears…? Try instead - giving her a bully stick to chew, and maybe a cow hoof to chew, maybe a little smear of peanut butter on that hoof to make it Really interesting. Just again my $.02

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Ah the tale of the willful pup! We all have a few I'd think.

 

Kona has been a real adventure and is a complete change in approach than what worked with Lili. First off she's bigger. Nearly 13 pounds at 12 weeks +. Lili was quite the timid little soul when she arrived. I'd imagine that I'd be timid if I showed up weighing about 5 pounds and scared out of my wits too. She was twelve weeks old when we got her and five pounds! Little Squint. She retained a healthy worry about pretty much everything. It doesn't slow her down or paralyze her at all, she's just wary of stuff. A slumping garbage bag still sends shivers up her spine...skittish would be a good word for it. Since she was the runt she grew accustomed to deferring to others so it was a challenge bringing out the dog inside because everything scared her. She wasn't hard to train at all...she sort of just paid attention. Really. That was about it...she just steers clear of the type of behavior that would get a negative result. She'll stand her ground when confronted but she's not one to confront. She's a confident, well balanced dog but her fear periods were longer and apparently more terrifying. She's grown into a nice place with a healthy balance between curiosity and fear though but it took a very delicate hand and patience beyond belief. I'm not one for great steaming piles of patience but I learned this valuable skill with all the dogs but especially Liliko'i. It took my thick skull quite a while to realize just how delicate she was...once I did she blossomed.

 

Since Kona came out of the middle of the birth pack hierarchy (I'm guessing) she's learned that she can demand action and she's developed a very headstrong mindset. She's calm and submissive, yes, but mostly on her own terms. She likes to please but at this point it's mainly about pleasing herself. She listens and responds but sometimes it's a gargantuan effort on both our parts. Her exasperation mode is hilarious and usually is reserved for Lili not playing properly or showing her proper deference. Sometimes though she'll hit me with a shot of 'Konessence'. It's a look. Kind of a combination of that look your uncle gave you when you dropped his beer and the look your teacher gave you...when you got the wrong answer.

 

I second Star's & Sherab's suggestion and agree that an even keel is most important at this stage. Anticipation is key but the hard part is that we can't watch them every second of every minute of every hour. We've answered that problem by creating a routine. Pups respond very well to a routine. Even if the routine is bad they'll respond well to it and work within the routine so make sure it's a good routine. She goes out 15-30 minutes after eating, playing or sleeping (the playing one is the hard one to detect a pattern on). We do use a crate but only for the overnight. Since she sleeps through the night now it isn't an issue but early on the early morning potty breaks were a struggle at first but gradually they gave way and she voluntarily returned to the crate with little fuss. The key to that was consistency and calm, assertive routine. One technique that I used regularly was open door cuddle time with the pup inside the crate, door open, and just constantly redirecting her attention, whispering , soothing and 'dialing down' the energy level. She responded very well to that and over the weeks she began to enjoy that time. Now her routine is down and out between 9-10 PM with very little fanfare.

 

Lili is in shock. Her whole world was Ida for the first year & a half then Ida passed and she ran solo for a year. She was bummed after Ida left but worked into a nice routine coming to work with us everyday. Then one day this new dog shows up and Lili's routine is shattered. She's become beta to Kona and the transition hasn't always been fun. Due to her nature though it seems that she realizes that Kona is a new member of the family. The fights are getting more serious...but never dangerous. The best is the morning run. Kona's graduated to being off leash in the yard during the day...when I can see her...and corner her if need be. Anyway, she and Lili have developed a morning routine where they head out into the yard and chase each other around for about 20 minutes. It's not a large property, about 1/3 acre, so big enough to get up a good head of steam. This always escalates into zoomies for Lili and it's hilarious to see Kona try to catch her, her little legs flailing around in the breeze, so it becomes the super fast zoomy blast! It really is a joy to see Lili so happy with this pup out there running her heart out. Her knee has stabilized and she's learned how to handle herself with the pup to minimize poppage. It still pops but it seems farther and fewer between. I still worry though. So far the Chinese herbs are doing a good job...so far.

 

After morning yard zoomies there comes cuddle time. This pup is a serious cuddler. Lili cuddles but not enthusiastically and she always limits the cuddle time by walking away. Kona is addicted to cuddle time. For example, after the morning run she has to come in and take a micro-nap in the recliner with Julie. She'll come over and jump up on the recliner and just look at Julie until she picks her up and places her at her side where she'll settle for a 15 minute nuzzle. Goof.

 

Here's an exercise for you. Try not to use words. Only body language & grunts. It's amazingly difficult but it seems to me that the dogs respond well. Lili & I have been developing communications this way for a bit so we've made a little progress. It's not complex stuff at all, usually having something do with the tennis ball, but it's fun to work on communicating like they do... It's really fun to watch Kona watch us during that time...eyes darting back and forth between us....wheels turning.

 

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>I agree with the NO on the barking collar. It is just as important for us too listen and learn what all of those bark sounds are trying to communicate to us (their language) as it is for the pup to listen and learn our language. >Go with your gut and feel free to show the love. :wub: >My pups sleep on my bed, and there has never been an alpha problem / issue. >The book by the Monks of New Skete is a fabulous guide.....but we're not monks so there will be little differences between what you do and what they say to do. >I like all of Star's, Sherab's, China's, Denise's suggestions....lots of great advise there. >I find whispering to the pups makes them really listen. ...I bet China's grunts do the same thing. :D Can't yell a grunt, like you can't smile with a frown. :ph34r:

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I'm getting advice from some of the best, i reckon! :) I've been experimenting with 'soft' and energetic communication, as suggested by many here, and you know, I'm already seeing the difference...I feel like Sita is letting me know, that she 'gets' me, that I don't ever have to be 'heavy'. So so helpful, and much more enjoyable for all. Thanks everyone so much!

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So glad you two are communicating better now :)

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Keep it going Sri.... AND keep us posted. It all gets so much easier when the communication is understood. ;)

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About the beginning of kennel training.....

I can't stand the sound of crying puppies. I get that helpless feeling, anxiety over whelms me. So I put my brain into thinking mode, that can be dangerous. :ph34r:

 

I asked myself, "what is this pup trying to tell me."

I came up with a couple of things:

> I have to go to the bathroom.

> Where are you?

>I can't see you.

>I can't smell you.

>I'm all alone...I miss you

and know there is more.

 

 

so I did a little experiment:

First I put the kennel on my bed up by my pillows, facing me...I'm sure a bed side table would work as well for those whose beds are full :D . This way the pup can see me and smell me and hear my steady breath as I fall to sleep.

I placed the pup inside...at first there was no sound from the pup, but as soon as I left the room to brush teeth, etc. the whimpering started. As soon as I came back into the room and started talking to the pup in a soft, low voice, almost a whisper, she stopped. I left the room again to get 2 small milk bones. As I left, the whimpering started. When I returned and continued our conversation, the whimpering stopped. Now mind you, I had spent the day playing with her, she napped on my lap while at the computer, I mixed my fingers in her food so she could smell / taste me as she ate.....she had a busy day.

When we were all tucked in, I shoved the milk bones through little openings on the top of the kennel....she found them later. :) I put my fingers through the bars of the kennel door and I whispered to her as she licked my fingers.....

Oh yes I forgot to mention, she has a soft monkey to snuggle with or play with...she does, a hard antler to chew on, and medium teething toy to chew on.

IT WORKED.....no whimpering, no frantic scratching at the door bars.

 

AHHHHH a quiet evening, everyone happy, no stress, no anxiety of a whimpering pup......full of sleep until potty call.

Love it. :wub:

 

Of course this kennel is the size of a cat carrier, and as she gets bigger she will be getting used to kenneling and with a bigger kennel, of course it will migrate to the floor. BRILLIANT! :rolleyes:

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That is really great Miz Molly! I felt a wave of gratitude and recognition when you described the anxiety of experiencing the crying pup...I'm not alone in the intensity of that (although it has gotten easier). Are you speaking from days past, or are you in puppylandia again?!

 

 

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