Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...

Welcome to American Indian Dogs

Register or login now and gain instant access to our features!

Recommended Posts

Hi All!


Well in October we got out X-back harnesses http://www.neewadogs.com and lines to start training for the cooler weather to do some Urban Mushing.


We are keeping initial training sessions to 5 - 10 minutes, akin to puppy training since this is something totally new for them (and me too!)


I got lucky that literally 3 blocks away is the warehouse for Neewa harnesses so was able to go and try on different types of pulling harnesses to see which adjusted and fit the best for each dog.

10 minutes turned into a couple hours and WELL worth it!


I've been emailing and looking up info on internet sites for training help.

If anyone on the forum has taught their dogs to mush (snow or bare ground) please feel free to contact me - all advice is welcome!


Advice I was given was to train both dogs together to learn to pull since they will be running together. IMG_20161014_1820253.jpg

Well, Kelli & Coffey went up to visit Mom so it's been about 10 days and no training for Tayamni.


I tried leading them and giving commands but when I walked in back to give commands Tayamni turns to face me.

So .... strategized for Kelli to lead (works best with treats in her hands) and I bark the commands, that worked really well the first day.

IMG_20161014_1820253.jpg



Now, I guess it could be the size difference but Tayamni is longer and cover more ground in a step so she is moving slower than Coffey and then Coffey ends up pulling more (so its uneven).

scrapping that train together, at least partially ...... have found I can clip the line (it has a bungy in it) to the chain link fence and get them AND also do it one at a time to start REALLY leaning into the harness.

My adaptation of a lunge line for horses, I guess.

Will incorporate this into training each time! IMG_20161027_1033451.jpg


I also want them to have fun with this. Coffey seems to think it's a blast. Tayamni is trying to figure out what the end game is.

Coffey is 9 months younger than Tayamni and I wonder if it makes a difference when a mushing dog is trained, how successful it will be or what the learning curve is?


I would guess AI Dogs have about the same pulling weight as huskies, which is about 100 pounds. Malamutes can pull more.

So, I can't gain any weight, we need a third dog if Kelli is going to do any urban mushing (or if we get a bike rig it will be OK with 2 dogs).


When ever I'm training I keep hearing "we really need a runner" and I laugh and I hear it again so I shake my head.

Maybe it's because a running dog would get these two into the mode quicker?


It's weird training them for something opposite than they've been training their whole life.

OR maybe because Kelli (my lead) can't run so the dogs only go as fast as her walk? They do need be able to go faster. However she doesn't want to give the commands from behind yet.

Need a plan to overcome that issue so they can trot and run.


Tayamni knows left 'ha' and right 'gee' and they are figuring out "git up" or "hiya" or "hiya, git, git," and the kissy sounds we used with the driving horses, to try to move a little faster.

Never guess, they learned "whoa" extremely quick! (that means stop and there's a treat for now)

I've been trying different words to get moving - Hike didn't have any effect but "Move out" seems to work most of the time.

(Kelli still has leash on Coffey's collar - treat in her hand seems to help them the best. Yes, I know, they are following the treat - treat moves they move but it's a training aid that works for us).


It's a slow process, I like my fence idea to get them to learn to lean into these pulling harnesses.

I just hope we get it together before March / April when it starts getting too warm again. LOL!


I'm not sure if it would be a good idea or bad idea to let Tayamni wear her pulling harness going from the car to the dog park gate.

That's about the only time she still pulls on her walking harness, so since I'm not having great success keeping her at a heel then,

I could use it to my benefit and let her pull with the correct harness?


Don't know if that is a good or bad idea.

Can't think of all the possible outcomes of how it would affect her leash walk training.


What do ya' think???????? :ph34r:










IMG_20161014_1820472.jpg

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm doing this with my guys too! In my experience they don't seem to have a huge issue differentiating between their pulling harnesses and their regular walking harnesses - they're very different style harnesses so they can tell which they're wearing and they've learned the 'rules' for each. I say YES do let them pull you to the dog park if you have them in their pulling harnesses! You can alternate their harnesses by the day and work on getting them to differentiate between the two, which will help reinforce in their heads that when the pulling harness is on, you WANT them to pull. I've been having my guys pull me when we go for walks with their doggy friends instead of having them running off leash because having another dog loose ahead of them encourages them to pull more. Or I will let one of my guys off leash and allow them to range in front while I keep the other on the pull line hooked up to me.

My biggest issue is getting Tamarack to pull at all... Rune is my adrenaline junky and once he learned that the harder he pulled the faster we went, well, let's just say that's all it took for him to really get the idea. Tamarack is too much of a goody two shoes to actually want to pull. We're getting there but let me tell you it's a slooow process. If I hook them both up together like you have your guys in the photos, Rune has to pull the weight of both me AND his brother, and because he can't get T to move faster he gets discouraged and slows down to T's pace which I think is detrimental to Rune's training. It's been a bit frustrating.

If you can get the bike attachments I definitely recommend doing that. Rune LOVES pulling me on the bike because there's no limit to our speed other than what he himself can create. Whereas if I'm running behind him (I actually DID take up running specifically so I could train my dogs :lol: ), he's limited by how fast my legs can carry me, which is not as fast as he wants to go! So the bike is much more reinforcing...and I can go for longer on the bike so he gets a better work out.

Re treat training in this particular activity... I had to STOP using treats entirely. It works great if you're in front of them, but T's over-zealous expectation of a treat made it next to impossible for me to get him to pull ahead of me. He just stared back at me over his shoulder or he'd pull a little bit and then the moment I told him 'good dog' for pulling he'd screech to a halt and whip around hoping for a treat. It wasn't really allowing him to grasp the concept that I want a continuous pull until I say otherwise so I had to scrap it entirely.

What I found did help at first was to keep pulling sessions short so they don't get burnt out. You want them to WANT to pull forward the whole time they're in harness and if they exhaust themselves they start to slow down and not want to pull. Rune is particularly notorious for doing this the moment we turn around and head for home, which is a problem I haven't quite figured out how to solve. <_ on the bike i take him off front lead and hook up to side of my so that leading home but eventually want way too because if we out a trail sled in middle winter going have push thing whole he doesn lend paw>
Another thing you can do to help train them is to have them drag something lightweight when they're out on their regular walks. That gets them used to the sensation of having something actually attached to them while they're moving forward. I found that an old dish towel worked well for T because it was light enough that it wasn't a huge inconvenience and it would gradually get a little heavier as it picked up moisture/dirt. And it doesn't snag on things as much as you'd think it would. I tried a lightweight branch but it snagged on every rock and root and freaked him out more than anything. With the towel though he has reached the point where he will trot around as usual without issue as he would normally on a walk. Whereas with Rune, if I hook him up to something lightweight and let go, he's GONE into the horizon... ;)

Here's a video of him doing his thing! This is when he's hooked up to the front of the bike.

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites

Awww they look so cute. Coffee got really dark! Woodrat sounds like you need a hot dog on a fishing pole for T.

 

These harnesses are super cute: https://www.manmat.cz/en/products-siberian-race-harness-detail-244

Edited by Sherab
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Woodrat, are you having to push at all? It looks like Rune is pulling you totally. That is awesome. What a spectacular place to run! I have never tried three dogs.

 

Also, I'm so glad to be having these conversations again! I've missed them!

 

Denise, try altering your harness set up so that your little engine is about 6 inches behind your older lead dog. That way he will continue to try and catch up, while the older one will want to stay ahead. That is what has worked for me, using their competitive natures. You can simply add a couple of carabiners to one side making it longer to give it a try.

 

Just as you described, my lead dog really didn't want to work that hard, but he did want to stay ahead of the new dog (the little engine). The result was a smoother team, and no more pushing for me. :D I'm lead-dog lazy.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sherab - hah! someone jokingly said that to me a few days ago and I laughed and then actually considered whether it would work... it might, for the first 5 minutes at least! :lol:

 

Allison - no, in that video that's all him! I help him out on the uphills (he is only 40 lbs of spindly limbs after all!) but for the most part I try to encourage him to do most of the work. He's gained a good deal of muscle development from doing this, it's pretty impressive!

I played around with dog placement a bit too - lengthening one and not the other to see which was most effective. Having T lead and Rune be the 'engine' was very effective on Rune's end... and while it did get T to pull ahead (but only after a LONG time of just standing there trying to get him to even move and he had to be absolutely certain Rune was far enough behind that he couldn't shove into him because he hates when dogs do that and Rune has no concept of personal bubbles), it did not encourage him to move fast at all. I can't get him to voluntarily go above a trot, and even a fast trot takes a LOT of encouragement to achieve and it certainly doesn't sustain. He just has absolutely no motivation to move any faster. He is the least competitive dog I have ever met and while I do love that about him, it makes it extremely hard to get him involved in this kind of thing. He doesn't care if Rune goes first, and in fact he'd rather let him.

If I have Rune lead T hangs back and trots at a loose lead or lets himself be dragged dramatically if Rune goes faster than his trot. He also gets spatially weirded out by the lead bouncing next to him and tries to give it as much space as possible. So sensitive, my dear Tamarack :rolleyes:

 

I actually had an issue with harnesses and Rune and I wonder if it is an Indian dog thing - he has a tendency to trot at an angle, which Tamarack also does though less so in harness, and the angle caused the side strap of the x back harness I was using to shift up his side and rest right on top of his last rib. I didn't realize what was happening until I looked at him one day and realized he looks to be missing that rib on the one side... I think the continued pressure from the harness strap pushed the rib inwards. You can still feel the rib in there if you really go looking for it, but it's pretty far in there. It doesn't bother him at all so I'm not sure that it's a big deal other than the fact that it drives me crazy every time I look at him because it stands out like a sore thumb... I had to quickly ditch the x back and go for a different style that had a more fixed strap that stayed horizontal across the ribs no matter what angle he pulled at. So keep an eye out for that if any of you have crooked runners!

This is the one I have: https://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Paws-Adjustable-Pulling-Harness/dp/B0049PJPWG

This is the style I want to get: http://www.k9trailtime.com/shop/euro-long-zero-dc-faster-sports-harness.html
The second one has a nice wide padded strap up the side and I think even if the angle of the line goes up (when it's attached to my waist) it will still sit okay across the ribs. I also like that it doesn't restrict his back from arching up as he does a lot of bounding when he runs.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow! Thanks for all the info!

 

I hope this topic keeps going as we progress. This sharing is great!

 

Sherab, I have thought about the carrot on a stick thing as a last resort ... ha ha. Woodrat, let me know if you try it.

 

Woodrat, I can imagine Rune sitting on the sled and you pulling him back home.

Funny it's usually different with horses, turn them homeward and away they go!

 

 

Allison, will try to add a length to the y-line for Tayamni when trying to get them to pull together. I guess I don't hook the neck line when doing that? or do I?

 

 

'Neewa' is an italian pulling sport harness company. racing, skijoring, bikejoring, etc etc. We tried on xback, adjustable xbacks, and an H back racing harness. The regular Xbacks ended fitting best, even for little Coffey.

 

Coffey arches his back when he runs (at dog park) and will watch for any sideways pulling. Don't want to give him any unavoidable injuries.

 

Woodrat, do you use the pulling harness when attaching the dishrag? Do you do that on walks with him or just specific training times?

I had been told to use a light piece of wood for them to get used to dragging BUT as you said it gets stuck and bumps so I scrapped that for initial learning and will move up to it after each are comfortable - or just get the bike rig (I found one that retracts the line so no slack to get stuck in front tire).

 

Tayamni used to love to run as a puppy, the Vet caused complications with her spay slowed her down a while, and she is beginning to love to run again. Teaching her to pull seems like teaching Tamarak - LOL!

 

I think Rune and Coffey are about same age, maybe it is good to start after a year old and before a couple years??? I'm sure adult dogs can learn too. If I had more experience I'm sure that would help.

 

Woodrat, I'm not a runner either. Asthma, etc. I should be able to handle the run to the dog park gate! Good idea to change it up every now and then so Tayamni doesn't think its a pattern and remembers it is the harness difference.

 

I think this is another great way to bond with our dogs!

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Woodrat mine do that sideways running thing too. What I find with the X back is that the harness tends to squeeze them back into a better line. Also it's like a net for Cake who is the wind. Wind in a net. The manmat ones have really nice padding around the neck and on the chest. I was looking at the Siberian one because the padding on the standard X back - which is what I have stops at the doggy navel but the Siberian has padding all down the bottom straps to the tail - if that makes sense. I have a question into Manmat on sizing of the siberian harness. It's $25 for the standard X back and a little more for the siberian at current exchange rates (Czech company). Don't know what the shipping is yet but it should just be something that goes into a standard postal bag. I plan to buy direct vs through an outlet up in Alaska that wants $50 for the standard X back - just the harness! and doesn't have the color options and that's before shipping cost. Will let you know if that works out. The New England based dog sled supply company I got mine from 2 years ago seems to be out of business. The biggest thing I've had to worry about is just taking our time putting the harness on because you don't want to over rotate the doggy elbow or shoulder.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Allison, I tried what you suggested again and extended T's line today and found that it worked out better this time! last time I did it I used another leash to extend the line so he was quite a ways ahead. This time I fashioned a makeshift short line out of paracord so that his line was only about a foot longer, putting Rune's head right at his hip. It's unclear if that made the difference or if T is just getting better at it the more we do this, but he was at least keeping the line taught the whole walk and he even kicked it up to a trot several times on his own accord. Denise, I still used the neck line to keep Rune at his side, but rather than attaching it to T's collar I attached it to T's pulling line behind him and that seemed to work out just fine. I can take a picture of the setup tomorrow if you want to see. I think T was more comfortable without feeling like he was being dragged around by the neck by his younger brother :lol:

 

Yes, I do use the pulling harness when having him drag the dish towel. I do this when we're out on our regular off leash walks in the woods, so he's not attached to me at all but dragging the towel with the pulling harness. A block would work if you're just walking down the sidewalk, but when you're out on a trail going over rocks and roots it will catch on everything and either get them stuck or hang for a minute and then jump forward at their hind legs when they pull harder to free it which really freaks Tamarack out. I tried plastic milk jugs filled with dirt hoping that the rounded edges would make them bounce off things easier but they are just as bad.

 

For the bike rig, I use a thing called a 'scooter noodle' from Alpine Outfitters which is just a lightweight foam casing for the pull line that makes the line bounce off the wheel if it ever touches it. It also attaches to the handlebars to help hold it up above the wheel. Works very well!

http://www.alpineoutfitters.net/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=236

 

I think the x back I'm using for Rune is just a smidge too big (it's a hand me down) and with him being so lean and wirey it really stretches out when he pulls cause he's got no width to fill it up. I have a custom made one for T that is much better padded (again from Alpine Outfitters). I think also that when I have the line attached to my hip it's at a steeper angle than it would be if it were attached to a sled, so that in combination with his sideways pull may also be why the strap was riding up onto his rib.


You can kind of see how it looks when it's doing this in the first picture (this was taken before I realized what was happening), and in the second you can see how noticeable that 'missing' rib is when you look at him from the top.

29114648464_59426a20e5_o.jpg

runelostarib.jpg

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, I love that picture in the leaves.

 

Yes, please get a pic of your setup when you can.

 

Hadn't seen the scooter noodle. Very interesting.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Eek! Yes that definitely looks like you need a different fit/ style for him. i think that's important - observing how the dogs put stress on their bodies depending on the doggy pants we put on them. Cake was very long and lean as a pup and other harnesses seemed to put stress on her shoulder because of how she butterflies around and to cause a roach in her back. i think it's like good shoes. Got to find the right ones for most of the time and also need a different pair or two so that the dog isn't always putting the same stresses on the body. hope that rib pops back in place with some time in different pants :).

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've doubled the length of the line that I'm using for now and that decreases the angle at which the line comes off of their backs, which seems to help a lot to keep Rune's harness in the right spot. I'm still looking to get a better fitted harness, but for now this works okay. And yes Rune roaches a lot when he pulls sideways in this harness, though particularly when we're not going as fast as he wants us to!

 

Here are a few pics I got on our stroll this morning to show the setup. It really does help to have Rune on T's hip. I found that with him in this position I could attach his neck line to the loop at the back of T's harness so that it kept him in line but when he pulled straight forward it didn't pull the neck line taught and put pressure on the collar.

 

boysharnesses1.jpgboysharnesses2.jpgboysharnesses3.jpgboysharnesstrot.jpg

Edited by woodrat
  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

How long training to pull before actually hooking up to a bike or scooter? I'm not sure whether to wit for a proficiency in pulling or hook up to bike for a couple blocks to incorporate into training 101. ????

Link to post
Share on other sites

My harnesses only come in 5 different solid colors but have safety reflective tape and padding on the collar and all the way on the straps underneath.

1477850768247-1296550956.jpg

1477850801788896608264.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be easier if they had proficiency to pull pretty solid before you hook them up to a bike - or at least I assume. If they didn't realize they need to move steadily forward you would run into the issue of riding up on their rears too easily and spooking the bejeezus out of them. Even after they're trained it's easy to do - I clipped Rune's ankle the other day with the tire because he zipped to the right after a squirrel and I just couldn't slow down fast enough and he zipped back in front of me just at the last second. He wasn't hurt but was a little put off for the rest of the ride and startled every time he heard the brakes.

Have you tried training them separately at all? It was so much easier to train Rune, and I suspect Coffey would be the same way. All I had to do was stand stock still in the middle of a field and wait... eventually he got bored and started moving forward, and when he did I got all excited and threw him a praise party and kept repeating that until he got the idea. Every time he pulled I would praise and immediately move with the pull, and the more he pulled the faster we went. It took all of 2 minutes for him to figure it out. But that did involve a good deal of running on my part and because I'd had no prior training myself at that point I was absolutely exhausted by the end of it. So from that standpoint maybe it would be worth trying to do that with him hooked up to the bike so you can reward him with speed, but you would have to be really careful because a big scare that early in training could be quite detrimental. I haven't hooked T up to the front of my bike yet because he is so sensitive and a early scare will turn him off of it forever I suspect. And he has a tendency to stop and try to pee on things... a lot.. and I don't want to hook him up to the bike until I trust he knows that we need not scent mark when we're pulling! He also won't run for me in harness even if I try to jog past him (he'll slow down and the harness will pull over his head and then he'll try to stop moving rather than match pace to fix it), so I know he won't run in front of a bike yet.

A better thing to try might be to have Coffey hooked up to you in his pull harness and have someone else walk Tayamni loose leash a ways ahead of you. Jealousy can be a wonderful thing ;) Watching his sister disappear around a corner ahead of him will likely make him forget all his loose leash training and charge ahead (screaming, if he's anything like Rune) and hopefully with you praising him profusely all the while he will realize that this is exactly what you want him to do.

If he develops a considerable amount of excitement over this, Tayamni might feed off of him and be more easily encouraged to pull herself!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherab - hah! someone jokingly said that to me a few days ago and I laughed and then actually considered whether it would work... it might, for the first 5 minutes at least! :lol: .....

This is the style I want to get: http://www.k9trailtime.com/shop/euro-long-zero-dc-faster-sports-harness.html

The second one has a nice wide padded strap up the side and I think even if the angle of the line goes up (when it's attached to my waist) it will still sit okay across the ribs. I also like that it doesn't restrict his back from arching up as he does a lot of bounding when he runs.

 

That might be better for him. I tried 4 different styles on Coffey and because he is narrow with such a DEEP chest, the regular racing x-back turned out to be the best for him all around - even with the puppy shoulder ligament issue. Wanted to make sure we don't aggravate any old "I'm a rough-n-tumble boy" puppy play injuries.

 

Will definitely watch to make sure the harness doesn't rub anywhere when he finally starts pulling something.

 

Wish we had trails like you do! We'll be biking on the roads/sidewalks mostly so we won't be running as far.

as they get proficient I will try to find dog friendly trails (without Zika mosquitoes). There are probably some a couple hours north near Mom's house.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Have put the pulling harness on Tayamni twice to run to the dog park gate.

First time there were no other dogs in park yet, so that didn't get her very excited. She does the look back thing at me, like I suspect Tamarak does with you.

(I think they are trying to make sure we are alright. Tayamni still does volunteering as Certified Therapy dog and recently she has started to make sure I am OK also. These dogs are truly perceptive!)

Second time at the park other dogs running around in fenced area. She still looked at me, as if to say, 'You want me to do what now???', my sister was halfway to gate so I yelled for her to call to Tayamni while I simultaneously (close to) gave her the go command and she started trotting to Kelli and the gate.

 

There was some tension but not always as she pulled and I did my best impression of a jog. The great thing was she didn't stop when I told her 'on by' Coffey and Kelli and she kept trotting up to the gate!

(don't think she knows what 'on by' means, however it was good to see her in motion and that she didn't stop!)

 

Coffey might be ready for the bike before Tayamni, his energy seems more like Rune's (and size?)

 

Coffey is still learning not to pull on leash and not get excited when seeing other dogs, so will wait a bit (on the run to the dog park gate) and train him more in the backyard for another week or so.

Need to get the extra length of line to set them up like you did with T and Rune. Thanks Woodrat for the pics and Allison for that idea!

 

I will do backyard training and maybe pulling walks this week with each separately on the line to see where we are and adjust training from there. B)

 

(Coffey's size near 4' fence)

 

Coffey size.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh, Coffey is petite.

 

A petite powerful ball of energy and noise!!!!!!

no one in my neighborhood thinks he's little - LOL!~ :ph34r:

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Psst hey it's after Halloween and they are talking about MUSHING. IMG_3826.jpgDon't worry, I'll hide you.

What's that? IMG_3831.jpgOh that kind of mushing....never mind....IMG_3823.jpg

Edited by Sherab
  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

Denise, did you ever have any further luck with this training?


Tamarack is starting to become more comfortable with the whole idea and I can now have him hooked up alongside Rune and he will still stay right with him for the most part unless Rune speeds up. And now that the snow is here we've moved on to real mushing with a sled and everything. Great fun!

 

 

I did also get a better harness for Rune that fits his body well and doesn't restrict his movement at all. It's the Zero DC one I mentioned in a previous post - he seems to find it very comfortable as well as he naturally pulls harder in this one than he does the cheaper one I was using before!

zerodc.jpg

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

He looks GREAT in that harness and they are both doing well in the video!

 

We have been hotter than normal down here this time over year except for two days recently but that's over already. Usually the cool blast comes a week at a time.

Tayamni watched your video and is thinking about it. She gave her lip licking yawn reaction - which means she's debating. She's a thinker.

 

I wonder if she was thinking "Does that look like fun?" or "where is the white stuff?"

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've doubled the length of the line that I'm using for now and that decreases the angle at which the line comes off of their backs

Very important point!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I have long lines if I can ever get to that point of using them! Next week supposed to get down to high's in the 60's!!!!!!! Good urban mushing training weather for down here!

Link to post
Share on other sites

That's right I forgot you're in a warmer state. Gosh I can't even imagine battling against warm temps in the middle of winter! Even in the summer here we were still okay running if we got up early enough and raced with the sunrise.

The long lines definitely make a huge difference. Tamarack was having a real issue with lack of confidence while pulling the sled, I think because he's paranoid it's going to creep up and nab him from behind. Increasing the line length helped with this considerably and now he can sometimes find the confidence to actually bring himself up to a run, which is something I didn't think I would ever see out of him.

 

Here's our latest success, with a little added entertainment at the end from dear young Rune...no wonder poor T has such a hard time. (ignore my screechy happy voice, this was one of the first times T ever ran ahead of the sled so it was a pretty big moment!)

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...