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Lilli,..good girl. Really good girl.

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yeah- Takes a couple days, but the Sr dog usually will take to and protect the baby-dog.   *proof*

So hey! It's me...Kekona!     Just a note to catch up with everybody. How cool it is that all my cousins and sisters & brothers and stuff are going all over the country? Dad told me all ab

Breakthrough!   Over the last few days Kona has been going down at about 930 or so. She starts fading about about 8 and we spend the next 45 minutes trying to keep her awake. Then it's out for a p

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Lilli the hammer!

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  • 2 weeks later...



The Reindeer games continue…


Above is a moment of rare peace prior to a trip to the aforesaid mentioned Dog Park in which both dogs were well worn out after a morning of tugging on each other faces & yelling at each other in a language only that they and babies seem to understand for what seemed like hours but in truth lasted somewhere around 40 minutes.


Kekona has reverted to a wild beasty mode with all the special attachments & extra features factory installed! She has taken to defying me when outside in the backyard. Have had to go ‘retrieve her’ several times over the last few weeks and twice I’ve had to physically take hold and carry her back into the house. She seems to have entered the terrible two’s on afterburners.


Inside the house she’s only a little less stubborn and I believe only because she can’t escape or outrun me in the house. It’s brought my tension level to that of a ‘Politician in a Confessional’ and sometimes that has bubbled over into my interactions with her causing a further disconnect. It’s somewhat frustrating sometimes and when I bubble over she’s quite concerned and nervous and she won’t come near me for obvious reasons.


She’s dumped in the house on two consecutive nights although this morning’s gift reaction led us to believe that maybe Lili couldn’t wait? Very odd. Lili did have an organized ‘poop protest’ there in her ‘terribly well behaved two’s’ which lasted the better part of a year, so there is precedent. Yesterday however was clearly Junior Squint’s visit judging by her body language and disengagement. It was Lili who was disengaged this morning so it’s given us a bit of a start.


Kona continues to relieve herself in the house and at the most seemingly random times and places. She went for a very long period of time where she had little to no problem but recently there’s been an uptick in this kind of outcome which is, again, somewhat frustrating. Having been spoiled with ‘Little Miss Flit About’ this is all new but yet familiar territory for me. I’ve grown used the idea of having limits tested since Lili wasn’t that much of a breeze but this is a whole different level of test. I think there are two reasons for this:


1. Liliko’i was the runt and is therefore more naturally submissive which led to a reasonably simple training process since she enjoyed being led.

2. Lili is also the product of a different bloodline since her father came from Canada on temporarily assigned duty to Song Dog Kennels & I think that contributes to her different approach to life.


Now I might be completely off base with this assessment so I’m hoping some of the elders can jump in with their wisdom or the man himself can comment on this but it is apparent that this dog seems to be an altogether different breed than Lili is. This is an American Indian Dog. It might be my imagination sure, but these two are night and day…polar opposites. Sherab, did you see a similar thing when Cake came into your lives? There are so many similarities in the stories that Sherab & I post about Waki & Lili that I have to think that this isn’t my imagination.


The funny thing is that whenever we go out somewhere nobody seems to notice Liliko’i anymore. Not that Lili doesn’t get any attention but it’s more like, “oh yea, look, there’s another one too”. All attention is on Kekona and how striking she is and whether she’s a Coyote or a little Wolf or a Fox. Fox? That always struck me as odd. I’ll grant you wolf…there’s some of that and absolutely she can pass for a Coyote but a Fox? I just don’t see it. I’m definitely getting some biz cards printed up because there are comments every single time we leave the house now that there’s more than one of them with me.


The power struggle will continue and she’ll continue to test and break boundaries on regular basis but I see flashes of the dog she’s becoming and it’s a magical thing to witness the maturation process. Lili is the master plan and she hovers nearby always trying to guide or inform but Kona is a thick skulled beast if there ever was one and she sometimes passes on through like Godzilla in a Tokyo suburb. She’ll get there. Provided I don’t lose my temper that is…and admittedly that has happened on occasion too. She learns from it though so it’s not a total loss from a training perspective as it has been in other experiences that I’ve had over the years learning how to control myself & my dogs. I have a long way to go on that front & Kona is the latest reminder of that fact. The best part though is make up time…she’ll cuddle in real close under my chin, rolling over on her back and voice a sort of low, moaning growl…almost a purr kinda…sorta. It melts any tension right away! Then…poof…she’s gone.


Kona? Hey…where’d you go….Kona?....hey! Kona? Where are you? Kona?

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I'm not an expert, but I have a couple of opinions - food for thought - questions ....


1. From reading a lot of the articles on Kim's site about the old lines, the different tribes bred and used there dogs in different ways.

Not all tribes used the dogs for hunting. Some used them for hunting in different ways even - herding large animals vs. small game hunting. Some used for pack and some for pulling only.


Even though they are all Indian Dogs, to me that is like the difference between a Pointer and a Bulldog - meaning bred for different modalities, Instincts / tendencies / thinking & behavior patterns different - especially when going from pup to maturation as we try to guide them to be their fullest potential.


I'm a newbie with the Indian Dogs, but have been trying to learn of the types of Indian dogs in Tayamni's lineage / pedigree - my large animal husbandry background guides me to this. Or maybe it's just my natural curiosity of the nature of things .....


2. I don't think my little girl has gotten to the terrible two's but is more submissive than Kekona.

She has in the past - done a defiant pee or two - we could tell by the look in her eyes.

Only times she was reprimanded when she did this purposely (while we were watching) and she stopped that behavior.


However, and it may be because of her long spay incision - she did have a couple of accidents (both types) in the house a couple weeks after spay, but she was upset it happened - so I know it was not defiance.


She still doesn't always fully eliminate when peeing, we finally got to stop being proactive (it was like having a little puppy again) so she is slowly getting better but she does not have full stamina back yet, noticable at dog park - especially her breathing /panting, tongue hang within a couple minutes of running. It wasn't like that before the spay. In fact she didn't ever drool before the spay!!!!!!

(I'm praying her abs get back to full strength and she doesn't get any UTI's).


3. Tayamni doesn't listen to me much when there are distractions, she stopped listening to recall before the spay, so I went back to having a leash on her and yes retrieving her. I re- upped the treat giving / rewards. That is helping a lot! And sometimes if she is not wanting to come in (sometimes I ask not request, depending on her activity), I leave her out in the fenced backyard and when I come out the door in 5 minutes she thinks I've just come home and wants to come to me when I call her.


I don't know if that's a good tactic or not - but it has increased the attention she pays to me. Am I playing 'hard to get'? LOL.


I don't think my sister could handle a Kekona type personality, so it's good we have who we have - she's a handful enough!


PS Have you been able to try teaching her to go through any obstacle courses? Maybe she wants a job to do to settle her?

Plus you just had a hard winter and now "Spring is in the air!" maybe she has a type of Spring Fever?


I'm interested to read what the Forum Elders have to say about your post! :)


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C, There are definitely differences. Opposites in many respects.


When we go for a walk, Cake is the Unicorn Rock Star and Waki is just a very cute doggie. I get different reactions if I walk just Waki (we get in a good walk at a good pace), Cake - people really want to touch her, and both. When he's there people get that she's the same thing and by herself people get upset that she's not a magic fox wolf coyote unicorn. Also Cake is the "boy" and Waki is the "girl". When I tell people Waki's daddy came from the Tahltan in the Yukon they think that's cool.


Waki loves the cold and hunts for keeps. Cake likes it warmer, is far more gifted physically - can dance in the wind - Waki rolls constantly and Cake never. She is like a french person rolling her Rrrrrrr's and he is quieter, chuffing, talking with his breath. Still they share a language that is like twinspeak and a deep closeness like twins.


Both were bed snugglers. Waki gave up his spot to Cake and decided he wasn't a "baby" and that it was great to be a "big dog" on the floor. He still will snuggle and cuddle but he gets off when he's had enough.


Cake has been nearly perfect. Her terrible 2's so far have had more to do with butterflying. She's not EVER been trust worthy off lead and I expect it will be 3 or maybe 4 before she matures in that respect. On lead she can be a total flake, getting wrapped in the weeds or just not listening. With her wild looks that definitely contributes to people thinking she's not a dog. She also gets excited around people and makes this wide eyed crazy face - often dancing at them. Lately at 18 months she's showing some maturing and better listening. Waki was great until 6 months and then a bit insane. But he gradually got better and now he's coming along off lead.


Waki was little Mr fastidious. He couldn't even pee or poop away from his home spot for the first month. Then it was just pee then finally poop. Cake has always been a reliable pottier, quick and to the point. The only accidents we've had were with Cake being a fairly normal pup compared to Mr Clean.


They have different strengths and weaknesses with respect to bravery. Cake is suspicious of things left by the door and the vacuum. I've had to carry her into the house shaking because a box has been delivered or some boots are suddenly there. Waki is Mr Ferocity when deliverys come. Cake goes to her bed. Waki is somehow afraid of kitchen clean up noises but is right there under foot for things coming out of the oven. Waki is thrilled by daddy noises (saw, tractor, noisy tools...) but Cake not so much and is still working on some of that- like the snow blower and the trash barrel. Oddly Waki is more likely to catch a sound sensitivity and will hide under the bed (cake doesn't fit) but he's also been successfully reprogrammed on some that he's developed in the past (closing the curtains, water sounds in the sink). Waki was very submissive around Scott and a total mama's boy until about 12 months ago, now I'd say he's a bit of a daddy's boy. He loves to greet Scott in the driveway and he loves to show off his off lead skills to us all and especially Cake. Cake has uber respect for Scott except when he's on the sofa or in bed then she jumps on his stomach, stole part of his sandwich and just uses him as a giant body pillow. In the beginning Cake would do what Scott wanted and not me then she flipped and I had to go get her from the pasture because he couldn't get her to come in or come for her harness and lead.


Its very not German Shepherdy. I'd say the only consistent thing is that these guys are odd and unpredictable in an entertaining, temporarily super frustrating at times way. Who fears water sink noises but runs towards a chain saw or forgives almost any noise on a walk if it's explained as "noisy like daddy"?


RE gift in the house - sometimes the un-guilty party will act more upset than the guilty because they know a bad bad thing happened. I think it's a form of witness trauma. Yesterday I was visiting with some folks and their dogs went off towards mischief and the closer they got to "in trouble" the more Waki sat and made "look at me sitting being so good" wobbling.


So ya, they are definitely different and definitely the same.

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The similarities are amazing really.


Kona inherited Lili's fear of bags. Doesn't matter what kind of bag; grocery, garbage, laundry...whatever. They sometimes move and then it's on! Scrambling around trying to stay a safe distance from a plastic grocery bag blowing around the yard in the briskness of spring is something to behold. I've tried a few times to get video of this but it's so spontaneous it's tough to catch. The best one was last year when a vortice caught a hold of a plastic bag and whipped it around the yard for 5-10 minutes terrifying while simultaneously thrilling the Squint to no end!


I didn't necessarily mean that Liliko'i isn't an Indian Dog...more that she's so different from what lunkhead has thus far presented it got me to thinking.


I liked your analogy of the pointer and the bulldog Denise although I think this difference is much more subtle than that even though it was a good point.

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Did I mention that Scott said Cake was tiny compared to the group of same age pups she was in with?littlecake.jpg


You wouldn't know it now, she's a giant or seems so compared to Waki, but I guess she was the most submissive in her group too.

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:wub: OMG what a cute pic of cake!!!!

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Yes she was teeny. Not as little as Lily but perhaps relatively as small (that's a litter mate? or pup in the same age bracket Cake was climbing on).

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China -


Yeah, I wasn't trying to say they are different breeds - just that in reading on Kim's site of the old dogs, they were bred for different duties (depending on the tribe and area). I look at it like an imprint or a footprint ...... :)


For example: Tayamni was in her first (small) lure course at a festival. Most dogs chased right after the lure and ran happily following it in a (square) circle.


Tayamni, ran, then noticed it was going around and would stop and lie down about 20 feet from a corner and wait for it to get around and she ended up creating a smaller box so she expended less energy and met the lure coming from an angle.

Does she know geometry? (I certainly don't!!!!! :P ).


Her actions make a lot of sense once I saw her pedigree and that she has some of the 'Blue Mountain Shepard' / (Cherokee dog?) stock from North Carolina.

These dogs were used for hunting and herding so I can see their dominant traits in her.

Some tribes didn't use their dogs for hunting (from what I've read). I don't know if Kim has or had any non-hunting tribal dogs, I'm just saying for my example....


Tayamni is very submissive (at least to other dogs and very people friendly - she doesn't always listen but she doesn't outright test me either).


So, I guess we are back to the question of nature vs. nurture!!!!!!!

That's why I am trying to learn more about Tayamni's lineage because I believe the nurturing can fit to the nature!

Or - natures - when adding in the individual personalities (including dominant/submissive) as well!!!!!!!!!!!! :D


Have you received Kekon'a pedigree yet?

Do Lili and Kona have the same branch of ancestors?


I think that would be interesting to compare ^_^ and learn about ;)

since you have two AI Dogs B)


Ahhhh, maybe that's why we all need at least two! :ph34r:


I like learning and hypothesizing and extrapolating ..... curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back! B)

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Pack dynamics is a powerful motivation. I did not realize how much, until our pack was suddenly re-ordered, and Sitka's personality seemed to change. I realize, now, that he hasn't changed, but his sense of duty to the pack has altered his response. What you interpret as personality, may be strongly colored by pack dynamics.


Sitka subverted himself to the hierarchy of the pack and, many times, seemed as though he did not care, or perhaps more that he was self-contained and did not need us. However, now he is showing himself to be smart as a whip and very attached. He was waiting his turn.


I think this must be especially true in same-sex packs. Looking back, I wish I had arranged more one on one time, although I wonder if that would have increased competition for the beta spot. Hard to know.


Also, in my experience, there is always a short breakdown late in the house-training. After you have relaxed and started to be sure they are reliable, there will be another spate of accidents. It will pass, and then you will be home free.


Getting vocal with pups is good. Don't feel bad. Let there be no doubt in their little minds that you are not happy. They need these clear boundaries as you well know.


Now, will you please repeat these things to me when I am frustrated with my new pup monster?


Loved your post. Lots of food for thought.


"Politicians in a confessional.." Hahahahaha!

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‘Politician in a Confessional’


I don't remember hearing that phrase before. Excellent. Unlikely.


Not quite the same as "a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs" but sort of....


Resonates with Tom Petty's new song "Power Drunk"....

God, protect us from the thoughts in some men's minds
God, protect us from the pain it leaves behind
Now you see him against the sky
Believe in his own lies
Pin on a badge and a man begins to change
Start believing that there's nothing out of his range
You and I are left in the wind
In the wake of a rich man's sin...."
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@Gib: Always liked Petty...


@Denise: That's what I love about these boards. My understanding of dogs has been in warp drive, to borrow a Roddenberry phrase, since we were blessed with The Squint. Coming from a very pedestrian understanding of dogs for my first three dogs, Corky, my boyhood dog to Elsy & Ida, our last two, to this new plateau has been a rush to put it mildly. Haven't yet received Junior Squint's papers.


@Al: The dynamic thing is very subtle having seen it with four dogs now. Didn't really realize in real time what was happening but I'm so attuned to it now that it's fun to watch it develop.


@Sher: Did we ever find out where the larger of the two dogs in that picture went? The smaller is my little ball of Squint.

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I thought Kim kept the other female in that picture. Maybe Greg knows? This would have been Sonoma X Newkim Dec 2011 vintage.

I can say she does not look familiar but they do change some in looks as they get older. I will have to as Kim when I get a chance.

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And then at 3 years old, suddenly the zombie insane terrible 2 boy snaps out of it and when you unhook him because cake is wrapped in the shrubs and he's been telling you about those deer but you can't smell like he can and think he's smelling smoke from the wood fire which you can smell and are really paying no attention to him he shows his stuff. We were near the top of the drive where there is a deer path and a busy road. About 100 feed in front of us boom! a parade of deer runs past. Really running scared of the person and the 3 dogs. My little boy makes eye contact and his whole body is saying DEER PEOPLE! DEER DEER MOMMY DEER! I tell him to leave it and with some regret in his eyes he does just that. Thankfully my boy Shiva was like MEH, deer. Whatever. In his younger days he'd have been turned on and probably my 2 boys would have fed off each other (pack dynamics) and we girls would be standing there shouting after them. Mommy said no, daddy's traveling and said protect mommy ok that's reason weeeeeee hoooooo hooray!



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So the tough love sequence of stare down & hold has produced some interesting side reactions. Basically, when Kona does something stupid there's the inevitable 'chew this...not this' moment or whatever is the case to stop the negative behavior and replace with a positive version but when she ramps it up and ignores the guidance there is a low, fierce look given to communicate that 'this is unacceptable behavior' and sometimes in recent memory this has been entirely ineffective. Within the last two weeks however this tactic is bearing fruit in that Kona is looking for my reaction constantly but is now acting on what she sees...if only occasionally for the time being.


I started doing this with Lili when she was a pup and she was magically responsive to it from the very beginning. It was almost funny actually because she'd stop whatever she was doing and sit down facing me to wait for her release. Usually that was given within seconds but there have been times when it went out a little longer than that. Naturally, since that worked fairly well with Lili I adopted the strategy with Junior Squint but she'd never indicated that she gave a single care to what I was doing. I had almost decided to drop the tactic because it didn't seem to have an effect. However, over the two or so weeks this seems to be changing. She isn't always responsive to it but it always gets her attention now that we have had our 'moment' of lost temper and "Save Me Mommmy!!!"


Now, she's very in tune with me and looks for a knowing glance. She doesn't always get it but it's becoming a regular process of her thinking and that I feel is a positive step.


One day and one step at a time.

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That's awesome. They do learn from each other, even if they don't confess right away...I'd just like to know why the good behavior takes so long to "catch" and the difficult behavior is picked up right away...little monkeys.


Lili's brother decided this week that it's fun to hide under the bed instead of putting on his "pants" for our walk. I suspect he wants a treat and some chasing or maybe he thinks he doesn't need to be on a leash anymore. He infected Cake so she was then also running away from her "pants" today but she just goes to her bed and is easy to catch. I decided I needed to try to nip this in the bud. So I took his pants for a walk with out him. That got his attention. He did come and sit for me after and he and I got our walk in. We'll see if he's better tomorrow or if those pants will be a walking by themselves again.

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Brilliant! That must have gotten his attention. Kona is the ultimate jealous soul but lately the roles have reversed...especially at the dog park. Kona will engage and then Lili will flit around her to regain attention from the other dogs that Kona has engaged. It's fun to watch.

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  • 3 months later...

Rumblings deep within the mountain...


minor tremors building into more substantial shaking and violence








Woke up to find this fine gift from junior squint this morning....didn't react quick enough to capture the image of her lying on her back, buried in the stuffingsnow, relishing her exhausting overnight destruction party! If I wasn't so mad at her for this it would have funny to catch the look on her sleeping face, mondo-satisfied with her grand accomplishment!


I gently (NOT!) picked her up and tossed (NOT!) her into her crate and slammed the door shut and she's been there ever since (06:05 central). The look on her face tells me that she's gotten the message but I'm at a loss for why she'd do this in the first place at this stage of the game.


I'm chalking it up to terrible two's but I'm realizing now that my training activities will need to be stepped up with reckless abandon to say the least.


I had become complacent in the training regimen as of late because, well, life has a way of getting in the way from time to time and it's easier that way plus the fact that big squint, as I've taken to calling Lili now, was such a breeze to train I got a little bit lazy.


Back to the drawing board it seems....



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